# Libertarian Islands **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 16, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928 "2011-08-16T18:20:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/21 "2011-08-16T20:00:53Z")
I recommend the novel “The Moon is a Harsh Mistress” by Robert Heinlein. This book involves a bunch of rebels that try to set up a libertarian society on the Moon, but it doesn’t work as well as they had hoped due to the practicalities of maintaining an orderly and functioning society. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/22 "2011-08-16T20:01:48Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Completely unlike the rest of China, proof that excessive government control will reduce pollution and explosions. Great example. Remind me— does China’s “excessive government control” historically include strict environmental regulation? Because if it does and it didn’t help, you’d have a point. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/23 "2011-08-16T20:02:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > All fair things to say about libertarianism. People die in large numbers with lax or nonexistent regulations, Somalia is an example of what you get with a really weak state (and I’ve heard it spoken of with approval by libertarians), and libertarianism like Communism is a horribly impractical utopian ideology that can’t help but be a disaster if someone tries to implement it. And once again we’re going to tell you that libertarianism is not anarchy. Ah hell, might as well tell you again libertarianism is not anarchy Did you get it that time? Just in case: libertarianism is not anarchy Somalia’s problems aren’t because of lax or nonexistent regulations, and has nothing to do with libertarianism. Why? Because libertarianism is not anarchy. The point is not to have a weak government. Libertarianism still has laws, and those laws have to be upheld, otherwise you have anarchy, and libertarianism is not anarchy. China is hardly lacking in regulations, in fact they have way more regulations than the US. Which is why your plea for more regulations is such a joke. Regulations are meaningless without the ability or desire to enforce them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/24 "2011-08-16T20:05:32Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > China is hardly lacking in regulations, in fact they have way more regulations than the US. _Environmental_ regulations? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/25 "2011-08-16T20:08:14Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > And once again we’re going to tell you that libertarianism is not anarchy. No, libertarianism isn’t anarchy; it’s more like feudalism. Where the _lords_ can do as they like and the serfs suffer. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/26 "2011-08-16T20:11:19Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > I recommend the novel “The Moon is a Harsh Mistress” by Robert Heinlein. This book involves a bunch of rebels that try to set up a libertarian society on the Moon, but it doesn’t work as well as they had hoped due to the practicalities of maintaining an orderly and functioning society. I think you need to re-read that book. First of all, they didn’t ‘try to set up a libertarian society on the Moon’. They were members of a _penal colony_. They had no choice in the matter. Second, they _did_ build a libertarian society, because the penal colony governor didn’t care about them so let them run their own society. It worked very well, and the people were happy and built up institutions to replace govermment. For example, line and clan marriages became the mechanism for taking care of retirement, protecting people from loss of income due to injury or illness, and caring for the education of children. \*\*\* Spoiler Alert if you haven’t read the book \*\*\* Where it went wrong was when the lunar authority, the central government, interfered with the grain market and forced grain farmers to meet quotas for shipping grain to earth - quotas that were unsustainable and which were bleeding the moon of its raw resources without proper compensation. The fix for that in the book was for the colonists to declare independence, then negotiate with Earth under a condition of free trade so they could make sure that their grain only went to earth in exchange for raw materials that would keep the lunar farming system sustainable. The big worry at the end of the book was that once the colonists had managed to gain their freedom from the lunar authority, the same kinds of power-hungry politicians and bureaucrats and do-gooders would seize the new government’s levers of power and create yet another tiresome big government attempting to manage other people’s lives. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/27 "2011-08-16T20:11:41Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Remind me— does China’s “excessive government control” historically include strict environmental regulation? Because if it does and it didn’t help, you’d have a point. […according to Wang, the rate of China’s environmental laws and regulations that are actually enforced is estimated to be barely 10 percent.For instance, he notes, China’s criminal law that includes clear stipulations on crimes of serious environmental accidents took effect in 1997. In the following five years the country recorded at least 50 serious environmental accidents a year based on official estimation, but to date no more than 20 people have been held accountable.](http://www.chinese-embassy.org.uk/eng/zt/Features/t214565.htm) Keep in mind, punishment for these crimes is often execution. [This stands as a great contrast of what is happening on Wall Street with AIG, Goldman Sachs and other financial institutions that bought, sold and made great profits from scam insurance derivatives known as Credit Swaps. In China -justices comes swiftly and severely with corporate greed.Among those to be executed are Mr. Zhang Yujun, and Geng Jinping for their part in lacing poison into the milk supply for baby formula some of which was sold in North American stores.](http://www.politicolnews.com/china-executes-greedy/) China has plenty of laws and plenty of regulations, where failure to comply results in death. Again, the point we keep trying to get through to you guys is that there isn’t any point to a regulation if you can’t or won’t enforce it. Regulations in China fail because it’s too easy to bribe the officials. Good thing that never happens in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/28 "2011-08-16T20:13:20Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Did you get it that time? Just in case: > libertarianism is not anarchy > > Somalia’s problems aren’t because of lax or nonexistent regulations, and has nothing to do with libertarianism. Why? Because libertarianism is not anarchy. The point is not to have a weak government. Libertarianism still has laws, and those laws have to be upheld, otherwise you have anarchy, and libertarianism is not anarchy. And here is where Libertarianism falls apart. Precisely what laws are appropriate? If you get 100 Libertarians together you are going to get different answers. If you have LIbertarian Island sooner or later one will want a special tax break or zoning loosened. Sooner or later one Libertarian will step on another Libertarian’s toes and the aggrieved party will want it fixed so that doesn’t happen again (maybe the crazy cat lady living in the apartment next door makes your place smell like a porta-potty on a hot day in Juarez). And so it goes. In time you will have a mish-mosh of laws and regulations and it is no longer Libertarian land. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/29 "2011-08-16T20:15:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, libertarianism isn’t anarchy; it’s more like feudalism. Where the _lords_ can do as they like and the serfs suffer. So I trust this means you’ll stop posting that same shit again right? You’ve now admitted that libertarianism is not anarchy, so comparing it to Somalia is pretty stupid. Now, the only way this can be like feudalism is if the surfs are not free to leave. You see, it’s pretty hard to be a lord if all your subjects bugger off to a neighbouring hamlet. Otherwise what you have is slavery, and that requires the US government. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/30 "2011-08-16T20:18:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _Environmental_ regulations? Do you have any evidence that the pollution in the prosperity zones is any worse per dollar of GDP output than it is anywhere else in China? Seriously, you all should go read the information at Paul Romer’s site, and especially watch his TED talks. The arguments here are addressed, and he makes a lot of damned good points. He’s no wild-eyed libertarian: He was a professor of economics at Stanford, he was offered the job as head of the World Bank, and he’s one of the more respected economists in America. He’s not even a libertarian - he’s more of a neo-liberal like Clinton. TIME magazine named him one of America’s 25 most influential people. [TED Talk - Paul Romer on Charter Cities](http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_romer.html) [Charter Cities](http://chartercities.org/) ---
**Author:** ![CapnPitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@CapnPitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CapnPitt)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/31 "2011-08-16T20:21:31Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Where do you think human waste is currently dumped? Correct me if I’m wrong but most coastal towns send their sewage into the ocean. I know my home town only recently put in a treatment plant. > > [Currently, lax state and federal laws allow cruise ships to dump untreated sewage from toilets once the ships are three miles from shore.](http://na.oceana.org/en/our-work/stop-ocean-pollution/cruise-ship-pollution/overview) > > So once again we have a thread about libertarianism that predicts a bunch of stuff that currently happens. Are you guys living under rocks? Or have you simply never left the US? Well, I’ve left the U.S., but everywhere I’ve lived has had some sort of sewage treatment. Either via regulations on septic systems or actual sewer and treatment centers. What I did forget to mention was solid waste. Hard to make a landfill on water. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/32 "2011-08-16T20:23:02Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > [QUOTE=Der Trihs] > No, libertarianism isn’t anarchy; it’s more like feudalism. Where the lords can do as they like and the serfs suffer. So I trust this means you’ll stop posting that same shit again right? You’ve now admitted that libertarianism is not anarchy, so comparing it to Somalia is pretty stupid. [/quote] You mean Somalia, with its war_lords_? > [@emacknight](#): > > Otherwise what you have is slavery, and that requires the US government. :rolleyes: No it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/33 "2011-08-16T20:24:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _Environmental_ regulations? Your internet seems to work, have you been to [www.google.com](http://www.google.com) lately? [Over the last three years, the Chinese government has punished 33 multinational corporations for violating the nation’s environmental laws and regulations, according to Ma Jun, director of the nongovernmental Institute of Public & Environmental Affairs. Ma’s announcement in September came as a surprise to many, as the Chinese public has tended to assume that multinational companies abide more strictly by the law than some in fact do in this heavily polluted country.The exposed companies include subsidiaries of world-renowned corporations such as American Standard, Panasonic, Pepsi, Nestle, and 3M. They were punished mainly for discharges of substandard waste water and for unauthorized construction activities that occurred in the absence of proper environmental impact assessments.](http://www.worldwatch.org/node/4764) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/34 "2011-08-16T20:27:32Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Otherwise what you have is slavery, and that requires the US government. FYI: Slavery existed in what was to become the United States in the early 1600’s. My history is a little rusty but pretty sure there was no United States back then. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/35 "2011-08-16T20:30:11Z")
> [@CapnPitt](#): > > Well, I’ve left the U.S., but everywhere I’ve lived has had some sort of sewage treatment. Either via regulations on septic systems or actual sewer and treatment centers. I seriously doubt you know what you’re talking about, as just one example: > **[Raw Human Sewage Pouring Into America's Lakes And Streams](https://rense.com/general28/raw.htm)** Remember, the reason I’m bringing this up is to counter the fallacy that without government regulations raw sewage will be dumped into the sea. Because it is WITH government that raw sewage flows into the sea. It is flowing through government pipes. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/36 "2011-08-16T20:32:16Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Your internet seems to work, have you been to [www.google.com](http://www.google.com) lately? > > [Over the last three years, the Chinese government has punished 33 multinational corporations for violating the nation’s environmental laws and regulations, according to Ma Jun, director of the nongovernmental Institute of Public & Environmental Affairs. Ma’s announcement in September came as a surprise to many, as the Chinese public has tended to assume that multinational companies abide more strictly by the law than some in fact do in this heavily polluted country.The exposed companies include subsidiaries of world-renowned corporations such as American Standard, Panasonic, Pepsi, Nestle, and 3M. They were punished mainly for discharges of substandard waste water and for unauthorized construction activities that occurred in the absence of proper environmental impact assessments.](http://www.worldwatch.org/node/4764) When left to their own devices, corporations cannot be trusted to police themselves, so strong regulations from a strong central government are necessary for the sake of the populace. I agree with this. Laxity when it comes to regulations just doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/37 "2011-08-16T20:33:37Z")
**Der Trihs** : You have been told time and time again that Libertarians believe in a strong police force and the rule of law. If Somalia was a libertarian country, there would be an army and police forces rounding up the pirates and warlords and throwing them in jail, just like we would here. On matters of law and order there is NO DIFFERENCE between libertarians and liberals. We differ on what things should be illegal, but for those things that are (and that includes all forms of coercion including theft, fraud, murder, extortion, graft, etc), libertarians would do exactly what Canada, the U.S., France, or any other country with a strong police force would do - stop the miscreants and arrest or kill them to protect people’s rights. Some libertarians think that a suitably regulated free market security force could do this, but they’re a small minority. The mainstream of libertarian thought says that the proper role of government is as follows: 1. Maintenance of a military to protect citizens from external aggression. 2. Maintenance of police forces to protect citizens from internal aggression. 3. Maintenance of courts of law to adjudicate disputes among citizens from an objective standpoint. To meet the costs of these requirements, libertarians recognize that taxes need to be raised - either excise taxes, or income taxes, or sales taxes. Whatever is necessary to pay for these core functions of government. Again, this is BY FAR the mainstream libertarian view of government. So, your references to Somalia are ignorant and wrong. Consider yourself educated. If you persist in making this comparison, everyone should conclude that you are simply attempting to poke the bear and engage in sophistry by attempting to smear libertarians with the actions of criminals. It’s a despicable form of debate. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/38 "2011-08-16T20:34:21Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > FYI: Slavery existed in what was to become the United States in the early 1600’s. My history is a little rusty but pretty sure there was no United States back then. Nope, before 1776 the US was a colony of the British government. And to help you your US history, slavery continued until 1865 thanks to laws and regulations put in place and enforced by the US government. ---
**Author:** ![CapnPitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@CapnPitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CapnPitt)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/39 "2011-08-16T20:40:55Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > I seriously doubt you know what you’re talking about, as just one example: > [Raw Human Sewage Pouring Into America's Lakes And Streams](http://www.rense.com/general28/raw.htm) > > Remember, the reason I’m bringing this up is to counter the fallacy that without government regulations raw sewage will be dumped into the sea. Because it is WITH government that raw sewage flows into the sea. It is flowing through government pipes. Ok, I’m not going to say you’re not right, but the root site for this cite is dubious. But also later in that cite it says: “Under pressure from the EPA, Cincinnati’s sewer district has agreed to spend $43 million to eliminate 17 of its worst overflows. The deal will keep 100 million gallons of raw sewage from being dumped into waterways each year.” So it seems like federal _enforcement_ is/was working to correct this. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928/40 "2011-08-16T21:02:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When left to their own devices, corporations cannot be trusted to police themselves, so strong regulations from a strong central government are necessary for the sake of the populace. I agree with this. Laxity when it comes to regulations just doesn’t work. Yeah, I’m having a bit of trouble following **emacknight** ’s argument— government shouldn’t bother regulating pollution because there’s still gonna be pollution if they don’t enforce the regulations? Isn’t it actually a rock-solid argument for _stricter_ regulation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-islands/592928.md?page=3)