Libertarian Islands

Who has standing to sue under your regime?

Only people directly harmed? What if I do not drink water from a lake but I like taking the family to the lake on weekends for recreation. If some manufacturers pollute the lake so as to be unusable isn’t everyone in Libertopia harmed?

Further, I am curious about making lawsuits “easier”. What does that mean? How does that work? A common complaint these days is that lawsuits against corporations are already too easy and lucrative. In the Exxon Valdez lawsuit the Supreme Court limited the initial damage award to compensatory damages I think (not to mention it took 20 years to litigate).

Far from making lawsuits easier the conservative mantra is to make them harder.

It is quite possible, and I believe it has happened, for companies to coldly calculate that it is cheaper to settle lawsuits than it is to fix the actual problem. Nevermind that people are seriously injured or die.

Further, the people making a decision to pollute are insulated from responsibility. They are motivated by profits today and not some potential lawsuit ten years from now. I believe today if someone willingly violated EPA regulations in pursuit of profits they could face criminal sanction as an individual. In your world the company and shareholders take the hit, the employee has already collected their salary and bonuses and they walk away.

You could point them out to me if you have anything on this.

Personally my recollection is the Libertarian assertions tend to be vague and more matters of principle than concrete actions. Doubtless some have suggested actual changes but it is scattershot and not really in any coherent form.

Also, I have noticed if you get ten Libertarians together they will give you eleven different opinions on what Libertopia should look like. They may agree on principles but differ broadly on how those principles are to be achieved.

In the end I cannot recall anything like an actual model for a working Libertopia.

If I have forgotten doubtless someone here will point it out for me and my apologies.

It would have to be worked out in detail–just as it is today. For instance, Sierra Club v. Morton was just one such case, which ruled whether the SC had standing. They didn’t, as it turned out, but any individual with an interest did. So although they lost the case, it ended up as a rather big win.

The devil is in the details, of course. Who owns the lake? If it is public, then by the standards in Sierra Club v. Morton, then anyone with an interest in the lake would have standing. If private–well, then it’s up to the owner.

Widening the reach of standing would be one way. Another might give extra protections to individuals vs. organizations. Another might be to invent novel forms of lawsuit, along the lines of class-action but more tuned to environmental issues. I’m sure there are hundreds of ideas here.

Who is complaining about this? Libertarians? All of them?

What do conservatives have to do with this discussion?

Indeed it has. This problem would not be unique to Libertopia. I’m sure one can find numerous examples of companies flouting EPA regulations, and considering fines as a cost of business.

The only solution, and it is still only a partial one, is to increase these costs. It is very likely that court-imposed damages will be higher than EPA fines, IMO.

Actually, I already said that individuals should not be protected from sanctions. And yes, I’d think this could include criminal charges. LLCs pose a problem both in Libertopia and the current system.

No one has one, of course. But the same could be said of any number of political models. The only way to know if a complicated system like this works is to try it–exactly the point of the original story. The worst that happens is that it just doesn’t work out, and everyone returns home a little poorer. The best-case scenario is that it engenders a wave of novel, competing political systems, and that they iterate until they have something better than we have now. Either way, it will be fun to watch.

Quite often yes. Quite often individuals are too fearful, short sighted or just clueless to know when legal action is to be taken. And without oversight all sorts of extremely destructive things could happen that no one would learn about until long after a lawsuit become meaningless. What good is a lawsuit going to do when you find that a long defunct company secretly buried poison under its property and only now is it leaching out and rendering your entire town uninhabitable?

Since organizations and wealthy people have a huge edge over ordinary individuals yes.

Yes; the infamous Ford Pinto Memo is an example of that.

I’m surprised no one has one.

I understand that asking for one here is asking for more than can be done on a message board. For the SDMB detail of some basic features would be good though. Basically the constitution for Libertopia. Our constitution is not all that long and would be doable by any individual with a few hours of work (in terms of length…obviously thinking it all through is quite a task).

So, imagine you were given, say, Australia and you were Supreme Ruler and wanted to setup Libertopia. You certainly would have to sit down and start writing out how the government works and the courts work and all the other fiddly bits.

You’d think some libertarian sort would have done something like that by now. Instead they seem to talk in grand, sweeping generalizations that amount to a philosophy. A philosophy of government is a good start but the devil is in the details and I rarely see details on this.

To be sure it would always be a work in progress and you would add to it and tweak it as time went on but you’d still need a basic plan, a constitution for Libertopia.

The laws and the rest follow from that.

Libertarians, from what I have read, are a distinctly broad group. There seems to be a serious split among Libertarians. Specifically European Libertarians seem to be non-propetarian which is a more liberal view. American Libertarians are propetarians and distinctly conservative in their views of government.

Are you suggesting that Libertarians in the US cannot be regarded as “conservatives”? Obviously some differences on social policy exist but in that Libertarians are little different from conservatives as a whole. There is disagreement in the ranks about appropriate social policy.

EPA fines, under the current system, do not preclude someone from suing a company for damages. So, in our system, the company faces fines and lawsuits. In yours just lawsuits. Further, I think the EPA can do more than levy fines and can compel behavior. In your system the only compulsion a company faces is a fiscal one (e.g. they behave because it is cheaper to behave). As noted it is possible for a company to find non-compliance cheaper than compliance even if they are slapped with lawsuits.

Practical questions I’d like some answers to from those supporting this idea… I’m not snarking or asking gotcha questions here, I view myself as a liberal pragmatist, so I’m actually interested hearing how these very real issues would be rectified:

Considering very loose building codes, how are these islands going to support themselves without reliance on international trade for basic goods like food?, toilet paper, etc. Agriculture requires a significant physical space to be productive in, (modern efficiencies taken into consideration) and has specific requirements that i don’t see being adequately met if people can build willy-nilly everywhere.

The same goes for protein foods. Currently the most productive fishing grounds are near-shore operations, and the open seas in the arctic/antarctic zones. I don’t see the us sharing our fishing rights with separatists, nor do I see long haul trips to productive neutral waters working well without a take big enough for export.

Assuming that they CAN maintain a fishing fleet, where do the fisherman live? Same goes for the servant, merchant, and domestic class.

If you live on an artificial island, what particular need is there for weapons stockpiling? What are you going to shoot? Further, I’m fairly certain that if libertopia is built off the us shoreline, we aren’t going to tolerate their possession of any serious weaponry for very long. Frankly a country that seems to be operating on a limited economic model, run by a wealthy elite, and geographically isolated, is a perfect haven for pirates and terrorists. If they don’t just show up, such a place is certain to produce them.

I seems to me that international trade would require somewhat strict regulations when it comes to manufacturing. Am I wrong?

They set regulations based on scientific reasoning and lab work. They are not just a bunch of inspectors. The point is that the regulations are set before hand. Everyone is clear on what they are. It is not simply a system of fixing things after they screw up.

So once again we’re at the argument of “If regulations cannot be made perfect, it is better to throw them out entirely”

The point is that compensation after the damage is done is frequently inadequate or impossible. It’s very hard to restore an ecosystem. $$ does not cut it.

Here’s how I see environmental problems being handled in a possible “Libertopia” scenario. It’s hard to do, since it seems if there are 100 Libertarians in a room, there will be 100 different opinions on what “Libertopia’ would look like.

So it will be easy for someone to step in and say “but MY Libertopia would not be like that”.

However….
Company A is mining a Techronium deposit. Very valuable – The investors are happy, and Techronium is produced. The tailings go into a pond near the mine. There are no regulations about how to dispose of Techronium tailings because… well no regulations. Regulations just stifle new industry.

Some years later, the residents of Townville just downstream from the mine start to see an increase in cancers. It’s not like everyone is dropping dead, but the cancer rate seems to be very high. Folks start to suspect something is wrong. Unfortunately, there is no centralized Centre for Disease control to conduct epidemiological studies. No problem though! The town contracts for a private epidemiological study. The study shows that the cancer rate is indeed high, and implicates runoff from the Techronium tailings upstream.

Now, the company is worried. Profits will be impacted. They contract ANOTHER epidemiological company and surprise! They find there is no problem. It’s very difficult to prove a causal relationship here. It often is with environmental problems. It’s complex. There is disagreement.

A couple of years pass while these two epidemiological companies disagree. Cancer rates increase. The problem is really serious now. Some more folks in the town get together to pool their money and hire a law firm. They sue the Techronium company. The company hires a really powerful law firm. They stall. They get expert opinion that Techronium waste is good for you. Much paper goes back and forth between the law firms. More years pass. More people die.

The Techronium company continues to make large profits, which they pump into Public Relations. A “grass roots” group springs up; “Friends of clean Techronium” . This group badmouths the original citizens who launched the lawsuit, calling them idiots who are against progress and jobs.

The original epidemiological company is bought out by a larger one, and now refuses to work for the citizen group. They have to start again with a new study. The citizen group runs out of money as members quit due to being harassed by “Friends of Clean Techronium” Years pass. More people die.

Techronium profits are up again! The mine expands!

Now in the lake some 100 miles distant, the entire fish stock collapses, and a fishing community is decimated. Techronium is though to be the culprit. What do you suppose will happen now?

Well, yes. Lack of omniscience in humans is one significant problem with libertarianism.

Something much like this has happened.

Read about the Love Canal mess.

A few tidbits from that link:

A stirring argument in favor of small-town local government over soulless federal oversight.

And yet some would have that we eliminate the regulations and let the corporations have total control.

It’s the old “some corporations ignore environmental regulations, so we should get rid of the regulations and then the corporations will somehow do the right thing.”

[QUOTE=Bosstone]

A stirring argument in favor of small-town local government over soulless federal oversight.
[/QUOTE]

This I just don’t get. The federal agency was not “soulless”, they were powerless. I really cannot see how a small-town local government would have more power, and fare better against corporations with huge financial assets behind them. Also, what is to stop the corporation from just doing it again in the next small town?

It’s about the power balance.

Right now, corporations have great advantages, and are even powerful enough to stymie federal agencies’ regulations. The solution to that is not to give them even more power.

Libertarians are not against the idea of environmental regulation, or any regulations that prevent externalities from harming 3rd parties.

The core principle of libertarianism is that people do not have the right to initiate force against others. Transactions should be voluntary, and individual liberty held as the highest moral cause.

Therefore, it is against libertarian philosophy for two people to come to an agreement which results in damages to a third person not party to that agreement. Two people can’t legally contract with each other to steal a third person’s car and split the proceeds.

In the case of the environment, two people cannot contract with each other to engage in an activity which puts effluviant into the drinking water of a third person. This is an externality cost being borne by someone who did not agree to it, and therefore it falls under the same heading as fraud, theft, extortion, and other behaviors that libertarians consider illegal and which warrant state intervention.

Now, before someone goes off and finds a quote from a libertarian saying that environmental regulations are anti-libertarian, I’ll point out that the simple principle, like all simple principles, can be difficult to apply to the real world in consistent fashion. Everyone imposes externalities on other people. By just breathing I’m putting CO2 into the air. If I build a house in front of a park, someone’s view of the park is obscured. So there are legitimate questions as to how much intervention should be allowed by the government, and just what types of externalities we are going to subject to regulation.

The libertarian answer here is that government intervention should be the last resort, not the first. If market mechanisms can be found to solve the problem, they are preferable to government edict.

Let me give you an example: Public roads are a common good. However, when roads get crowded, every car that enters the road creates an externality for everyone else in the form of additional congestion. If I make a decision to enter a crowded freeway, I have just imposed a small additional cost in time and gas on everyone else.

So what’s the solution?

The big government, interventionist solution might be to mandate smaller cars, or raise taxes to pay for additional road construction, or to build high-speed trains, or to force everyone into buses or light-rail transit, or to set up zoning laws that prevent businesses or houses from being built in areas that would lead to more usage of the congested road.

A libertarian would say that the problem is that people aren’t paying for the externality. So long as we can make everyone internalize the cost of congestion, the problem will go away on its own. We don’t know HOW it will go away - the market will find a solution. Our job is to simply make sure that people pay the real costs of using the road.

So a valid libertarian solution might be congestion charges. If you can calculate the cost imposed by using a congested road, you simply charge people more for using the road when it’s busy. Once we’ve done that, the market can figure out how to efficiently allocate a scarce resource. For example, if it costs more to drive to work from 8 AM to 9 AM, some companies at the end of congested roads may move to a start time of 9 to 10. Telecommuting may have more value. New companies will have an incentive to build in areas where there is spare road capacity instead of in business parks served by congested roads. More people might take the bus. Maybe the market will devise another solution we haven’t thought of yet. Perhaps private roads will spring up around the public one if the congestion charges make new roads profitable.

The point is that libertarians aren’t interested in telling you what to do. They don’t care how you solve the economic problem of using congested roads. They’re confident that free people can sort that out themselves, once the cost of congestion is transferred back to the people causing it.

There’s your example of a very practical libertarian solution to real world problems today. Note that there’s still a government involved, because to be practical we have to accept that government exists. And I’m sure you can find libertarians that will srceam, “No! No government! Privatize all roads!” - just as you can find ‘liberals’ who think that government should nationalize the oil industry and other liberals who disagree.

The important point to take from this is that libertarians do not want to control behavior. To the extent that we need government, it should only be as a referee, to make sure that people aren’t coerced and that they pay for what they use. In practice, that can result in a fairly large government because society is complex. But there is a bright line between being a referee and being a nanny. Government should not attempt to shape society. It should not try to micro-manage our affairs. It should not force specific solutions on the people. It should not be activist. It has no business taxing people to pay for other people’s retirement. The tax code should not bias one choice against another (for example, giving tax credits for having children, while applying punitive taxes on luxuries). Government should not be the controller or director of society, using the power of force to push people around in ways that central planners deem to be ‘better’.

Libertarians recognize that markets can fail. They can fail not just because of externalities, but because of information asymmetries, natural limitations such as there being room for only one road out of town. The libertarian answer to failed markets is that the government has a role to play to keep markets working properly. Again, there’s a bright line here: A regulation which corrects a defect in the market so that market-based choices work again is fine. A regulation which replaces the market with government edict is not. Nor are regulations which distort markets to produce outcomes that central planners think are better, such as subsidizing specific choices or taxing specific behaviors to achieve some larger social goal.

And most emphatically, libertarians do not believe in ‘collective’ rights. They do not believe you can have a right to the output of someone else’s work. Thus there can be no ‘right’ to health care, no ‘right’ to a living wage, no ‘right’ to shelter. None of these things can exist unless someone else provides them. For example, the only way you can assure someone’s ‘right’ to health care is to stomp on a doctor’s right to choose who he or she wishes to treat. In libertarian philosophy, this is immoral.

And needless to say, wealth distribution through taxation is anathema to libertarians.

I think he was being facetious.

We’ve seen what this produces in the early 1900’s in the United States.

It was characterized by a small class of exceptionally wealthy people, profound corruption among those in power and crushing poverty for a wide swath of society. Wage slavery was rampant. (Something we seem to be running back to currently)

I know, in Libertopia this is all somehow magically avoided. As with most wishful thinking it ignores very real human nature and abundant examples that this Utopian vision is anything more than a fantasy.

Oddly society prospered as progressive taxation and social safety nets came into being. Far from robbing the rich and giving to the poor the rich propsered too and made even more money.

Go figure…

Correct–I would not regard libertarians as conservative. Someone with conservative social beliefs is not a libertarian, IMO–except perhaps for abortion, where the primary question is when personhood is gained.

Even on the economics side, libertarians are quite distinct from conservatives. Conservatives are, generally speaking, pro-business, whereas libertarians are pro-free-market. The distinction is important.

I wonder about this. It seems like “following EPA regs” would be a very good defense in areas that the EPA covers (we agree that for areas that the EPA doesn’t cover, both models work the same). Can you provide a cite for a case where, for instance, a company emitted a pollutant but within regulated levels, and nevertheless lost a separate lawsuit?

Quite sarcastic, in fact.

Moderate libertarians tend to advocate for crippling federal power and returning power to the states, or even better to individual communities. But Love Canal shows that the neighborhood in question had zero power despite their active attempts to figure out what was happening, and the city government sided with the chemical company. It took federal and state intervention to do anything about it, and by then it was too late to do anything other than relocate.