# Libertarian \> Liberal??? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 16, 2004, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423 "2004-05-16T14:08:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/61 "2004-05-19T11:00:20Z")
How 'bout, **DudeLeave**? Oh, wait… ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/62 "2004-05-19T11:19:34Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > How 'bout, **DudeLeave**? Oh, wait… Awwww **Lib** don’t be nasty. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/63 "2004-05-19T11:28:04Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > How 'bout, **DudeLeave**? Oh, wait… Hehe 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/64 "2004-05-19T11:30:41Z")
I don’t know quite how you meant that, **kiwi** , but **Lib** was referring to some poster’s habit of reading **Mangetout** (pronounced Monj-Too, from the French “eat all”, hence **Glutton** ) as “Man Get Out”, hence **Dude Leave**. So not nasty at all, actually. And I read “Liberal” as pertaining to social liberty whilst retaining some commitment to minimising suffering where feasible - I don’t equate it with utter _laissez faire_ economics which _tolerates_ suffering directly attributable to poverty. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/65 "2004-05-19T11:44:28Z")
It really is a shame that tone of voice can’t be typed. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/66 "2004-05-19T11:46:05Z")
Sorry, **kiwi** , I guessed you might be being playful but thought I’d point it out just in case. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/67 "2004-05-19T11:49:53Z")
Awww I like to be ambiguous 😃 ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/68 "2004-05-19T12:46:16Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > I’d bet you would if he said he was a Marxist. I’d associate his Marxism with what most Marxists say they believe in: state control of the means of production, etc, and I would also assume that he was sincere; wrong and maybe naive, but sincere. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/69 "2004-05-19T12:54:12Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Do I get to self-righteously pigeonhole your political philosophy and impugn your motives now? Been done–maybe you noticed Lib’s post in which he pigeonholed liberal philosophy and impugned the motives of liberals? Lib, you may not have been able to make much sense of my description of libertarianism, but that’s okay: your description of modern liberalism is a hopeless stereotype as well. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/70 "2004-05-19T13:05:59Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I’d associate his Marxism with what most Marxists say they believe in: state control of the means of production, etc, and I would also assume that he was sincere; wrong and maybe naive, but sincere. so Pigeonholing is wrong, patronisation is ok. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/71 "2004-05-19T13:06:17Z")
**furt** , re: your last post, I realize you may have gotten caught in the crossfire (to use a wildly melodramatic metaphor). Although I _do_ think that capital-L Libertarianism in the US is wrong and naive, you didn’t come in here insulting my political philosophy; only Lib did that, and so my description of Libertarianism was intended for him, as a demonstration of how such oversimplification could be annoying. My apologies to you for appearing to dismiss your philosophy; FWIW, I find a great deal about Libertarianism to be very appealing, but I believe the philosophy’s equation of property rights and human rights is a fatal flaw. If you want to discuss this point further, we should probably do so in GD. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/72 "2004-05-19T13:20:44Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Been done–maybe you noticed Lib’s post in which he pigeonholed liberal philosophy and impugned the motives of liberals? You mean where I said, “The heart of liberalism is a belief in the intrinsic worth of every individual. Liberalism is poltical courage.”? Speaking for myself, I would be honored to be so impugned. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/73 "2004-05-19T13:22:52Z")
**LHoD** , no worries. And I’d agree that overemphasis on personal property rights is characteristic of libertatianism taken to excess. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/74 "2004-05-19T14:31:55Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You mean where I said, “The heart of liberalism is a belief in the intrinsic worth of every individual. Liberalism is poltical courage.”? Not only is that not what I mean, you also KNOW that that’s not what I mean. Why bear false witness? > [@Libertarian](#): > > Modern centrism (which calls itself liberalism) is the eclectic din of a thousand do-gooders pushing themselves into our homes like zombies stripped of free will, and driven by a misery loves company philosophy. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/75 "2004-05-19T15:42:23Z")
But that is impugning centrism, not liberalism. And you know that, so… physician, heal thyself. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/76 "2004-05-19T15:54:39Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But that is impugning centrism, not liberalism. And you know that, so… physician, heal thyself. And that, as I said previously, is glory for you. Despite your best efforts, words aren’t defined just by you; they’re defined by usage at large. Whether you wish liberalism meant something different from what it means today is irrelevant. You were impugning liberalism, although you disingenuously claimed you were impugning centrism. If your point is valid, then my point about how you’re no longer sullying the grand name of libertarianism (properly associated with anarchism) is equally valid. The difference is that my post was satirical. Your posts continue to misrepresent what I said, and say. Step back for a moment and ask yourself whether acting like this complies with your ethical and spiritual beliefs. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/77 "2004-05-19T16:23:53Z")
I’m not defining anything in any special way. > **[Liberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism)** > > Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), democracy, secularism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion and a market economy. Yellow is the political colour most commonly associated with liberalism.\[14 Liberalism beca... Daniel, I honestly have no idea why you have such a hard-on about this. I’ve explained myself thoroughly, and it is on record. If you want to insist that I don’t mean what I do mean, then knock yourself out. My spiritual belief is that you are God. And you know that, too. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/78 "2004-05-19T17:34:49Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I’ve explained myself thoroughly, and it is on record. If you want to insist that I don’t mean what I do mean, then knock yourself out. Of course, that’s not what I’m doing. But I’m tired of being misrepresented. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/79 "2004-05-19T18:17:47Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Due respect, Esprix, I believe you are mistaken. My e-mail, incidentally, hasn’t changed since you wrote to encourage me before. Much has happened in that time. You’ve lost the address, and I’ve left behind the things that cause meltdowns. Like I said, thanks, but you can run along now. You know that I always have your back. Well, I suppose I’ve been dismissed, haven’t I? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423/80 "2004-05-19T18:18:42Z")
William Ewart Gladstone would be proud – and I think supportive, of **Lib** ’s nomenclature. I know I am. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-liberal/245423.md?page=5)