# Libertarian solutions to poverty: do they make sense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 29, 2017, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546 "2017-12-29T23:17:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/21 "2017-12-30T14:06:07Z")
Charities in large cities tend to provide more money (per person) to the extremely poor than charities in small cities and rural areas because … there’s more rich people available to donate. The government can spread the wealth to where it’s needed. There’s lots of rural poverty. > [@vivalostwages](#): > > I’ve read this in more than one place and still don’t see how it could work very well. > > [http://libertarianviewpoint.com/blog/poverty-and-welfare/](http://libertarianviewpoint.com/blog/poverty-and-welfare/) > > [http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Libertarian\_Party\_Welfare\_+\_Poverty.htm](http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Libertarian_Party_Welfare_+_Poverty.htm) > > The gist of it seems to be that Libertarians favor getting rid of food stamps, welfare, social security, and related programs, instead encouraging those in need to get help from family, friends, community, churches, and charities. > > Maybe I’m being cynical, but I have to ask… What if someone in need does not have supportive family members or friends? Or perhaps the fam/friends don’t have room to take in needy ones, or are struggling themselves, or simply don’t want to help, for whatever reason? Or they live pretty far away from the needy folks? > > Well, then, perhaps those with needs could turn to the three Cs: community, church, charity. Butould those places have enough for everyone–food, clothing, and more? Housing included? > > What about health care? > > What becomes of Medicare under the Libertarian plan? If you really need, say, a knee replacement or some other surgery that is going to costs tens of thousands of dollars, how do you raise the money otherwise? > > Perhaps this is not a debate, but I wasn’t sure which forum it fit. Way back in the Middle Ages, there was an office called the “almoner” (for alms), who would pay alms to the extremely poor. The lord ruled because he had an army, and he still had to use tax money to help the poor (and not just throw them away). Well, I _think_ it was tax money. Perhaps it was private donations from his wealthiest citizens, but … is it really a donation when you have an army and can bring social pressure on your wealthiest citizens? I wonder if these “solutions” are proposed due to frustration with the “welfare lifestyle” rather than an actual desire to completely eliminate government welfare. I don’t like the idea of simply eliminating welfare. Some people really need it. They have multiple barriers to working. And even in some cases, where the parents are abusing the system, their children still need some resources. On the other hand, there are people on it “for life”. Some states don’t force the five year cut-off rule. To my way of thinking, the system instead needs more restrictions. For instance, the province of Quebec passed a rule cutting welfare rates for those who do not participate in work activities (without completely cutting them off). I presume this does not apply to parents of young children, the disabled, etc. There was some furious chatter, some nonsensical (like an article complaining that people who cannot work are treated better than people who do not work… I think that’s the way it _should_ be) but it’s a bit difficult for me to get all the necessary info because hardly anyone writes about this in English. Every study I look into talks about the horrible skill level of a lot of people on welfare too, basically high school graduates who really shouldn’t have graduated form high school or even junior high. School boards rely on local property taxes, which bring in more money in wealthier areas. Can this be fixed? Perhaps pool an entire state’s fund and basically pay the same $X per student? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/22 "2017-12-30T19:20:48Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > I wonder if these “solutions” are proposed due to frustration with the “welfare lifestyle” rather than an actual desire to completely eliminate government welfare. I don’t like the idea of simply eliminating welfare. Some people really need it. They have multiple barriers to working. And even in some cases, where the parents are abusing the system, their children still need some resources. On the other hand, there are people on it “for life”. Some states don’t force the five year cut-off rule. > > To my way of thinking, the system instead needs more restrictions. For instance, the province of Quebec passed a rule cutting welfare rates for those who do not participate in work activities (without completely cutting them off). Your starting assumptions are that : a. People on welfare are actually a significant cost to the government today b. Our society would have noticeably larger GDP if these poorly educated people were working c. Some other non-economic benefit would accrue to our society if these people could be pushed into productive employment All I’m saying is that you should recheck your assumptions. How much is (a) and (b)? There was a massive welfare reform during the Clinton administration. Most sources I have seen suggest there’s not nearly \*enough \*welfare now, and there hasn’t been for 20 years. So are you sure the problem you are concerned about is even a problem? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/23 "2017-12-30T23:33:15Z")
With today’s technology, there is only a very small minority of people that could not integrate themselves into productive society. By not hampering market processes with disincentives for production, production will increase. Out of this increased production, the truly needy will be cared for. Far from a thoughtless dystopian diatribe, a world of free capitalism is a world of cooperation. Capitalism has done more for human cooperation than any religion or ideology could because it involves win-win exchanges. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/24 "2017-12-30T23:46:16Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > With today’s technology, there is only a very small minority of people that could not integrate themselves into productive society. By not hampering market processes with disincentives for production, production will increase. Out of this increased production, the truly needy will be cared for. > > Far from a thoughtless dystopian diatribe, a world of free capitalism is a world of cooperation. Capitalism has done more for human cooperation than any religion or ideology could because it involves win-win exchanges. For the entire last week, my thought process has been, “Should I go to work or should I kill myself?” and it has been a legitimate question as to which one I should go for. Clearly, _something_ has gone wrong with this fantasy world you advocate for. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/25 "2017-12-30T23:47:45Z")
The Libertarian solution to anything will not work. Period. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/26 "2017-12-30T23:49:27Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > With today’s technology, there is only a very small minority of people that could not integrate themselves into productive society. By not hampering market processes with disincentives for production, production will increase. Out of this increased production, the truly needy will be cared for. > > Far from a thoughtless dystopian diatribe, a world of free capitalism is a world of cooperation. Capitalism has done more for human cooperation than any religion or ideology could because it involves win-win exchanges. I don’t disagree that capitalism has done some good. However, consider power imbalances. What if all you can offer is 1 unit of semi-skilled labor. Also, you need a job right now, or you’ll starve. The company needs your 1 unit of semi-skilled labor. With it, they can make more money. But they don’t need it right now. If they wait 6 months for you to come back and ask for lower wages, all it does is lower their quarterly profits very slightly. So the company has the incentive and the ability to bargain you down. Only in cases where an individual has rare skills that there is a shortage of does an individual have any real bargaining power - but you needed a job in the first place to develop those rare skills, generally, and also a graduate degree typically… And you need money in the first place to even get that graduate degree, unless your parents paid for it… This is why in reality unregulated capitalism doesn’t lead to necessarily great outcomes for workers. Things like a minimum wage and collective bargaining are ways for workers to band together and get paid closer to what they are actually worth. And we haven’t even gotten to the subject of monopolies, or the sale of services where if you decline the service, you die. Capitalism has a lot of special case failures. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/27 "2017-12-31T00:18:41Z")
Libertarianism isn’t a philosophy or an economic theory, it’s a religion. You can’t logic them out of it. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/28 "2017-12-31T01:33:11Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > …Stripping the theft of taxes that go to welfare from the system, and stripping the unnecessary regulations, will mean a booming economy that will allowed the Repressed to find work.… The inherent flaw in this, which I have frequently heard from libertarian types, is “boom”, which is a word that means explosion or loud noise that fades pretty quickly. A “booming economy”, as history shows over and over and over again, will inevitably, always collapse. It is just nature, and when you add the stripping of “unnecessary regulation”, the decay side of the boom gets that much worse. Have you ever heard a libertarian advocate for a thriving/sustainable economy? It does not seem to fit their narrative. Because “_cut taxes and watch the economy boom!_” sounds so excellent. Theirs is a superficial outlook that ignores long-term effects and many of the variables for which we have that regulation in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/29 "2017-12-31T01:39:01Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The Libertarian solution to anything will not work. Period. End of story. I agree with Libertarians on the idea of decriminalizing most victimless crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/30 "2017-12-31T02:12:27Z")
Well no, the real problem with Libertarian Philosophy are the twin follies of “Taxation is Theft” and “Regulations are destructive”. Because we have actual proof from history of how badly it ends for the workers when people, oh, from the other side, let’s call them “Robber Barons” are able to pay people a nickle a day with good chance of maiming or death without legal recourse. If you want to know why we have a modern welfare system, consider how bad that situation was working out and how pretty much every western country had labor riots, internal strife and even revolution, with several falling to violent revolution. We have what we have because a\> we can vote, and b\> Our leaders don’t tend to want to end up gunned down against a wall as the country burns. It isn’t good for the economy or the rich people who run everything. Libertarianism is just another Rich People Philosophy that says “Just let me do what I want to do and I promise, everything will work out just fine.” We know that doesn’t work out. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/31 "2017-12-31T03:31:39Z")
Many Libertarians support a social safety net and/or programs such as universal basic income. Every political philosophy has ideals and then pragmatic ideas. Personally I would support eliminating all welfare programs if replaced with one universal payment. I am a former LP member. I like how it’s labeled as politics for the rich but almost everyone I knew in the party was marginally employed (and not a trust fund beneficiary) and/or begging for money to travel to the conventions, etc. Maybe it’s similar to all the poor Republicans who support tax policy for the rich. I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/32 "2017-12-31T04:10:01Z")
> [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](#): > > I like how it’s labeled as politics for the rich but almost everyone I knew in the party was marginally employed (and not a trust fund beneficiary) and/or begging for money to travel to the conventions, etc. A lot of Libertarians buy into the idea that the government is holding them back. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/33 "2017-12-31T04:52:14Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > For the entire last week, my thought process has been, “Should I go to work or should I kill myself?” and it has been a legitimate question as to which one I should go for. Clearly, _something_ has gone wrong with this fantasy world you advocate for. Either it is a fantasy or you are having trouble coping with it. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/34 "2017-12-31T05:02:53Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > I don’t disagree that capitalism has done some good. > > However, consider power imbalances. What if all you can offer is 1 unit of semi-skilled labor. Also, you need a job right now, or you’ll starve. > > The company needs your 1 unit of semi-skilled labor. With it, they can make more money. But they don’t need it right now. If they wait 6 months for you to come back and ask for lower wages, all it does is lower their quarterly profits very slightly. > > So the company has the incentive and the ability to bargain you down. Only in cases where an individual has rare skills that there is a shortage of does an individual have any real bargaining power - but you needed a job in the first place to develop those rare skills, generally, and also a graduate degree typically… > > And you need money in the first place to even get that graduate degree, unless your parents paid for it… > > This is why in reality unregulated capitalism doesn’t lead to necessarily great outcomes for workers. Things like a minimum wage and collective bargaining are ways for workers to band together and get paid closer to what they are actually worth. > > And we haven’t even gotten to the subject of monopolies, or the sale of services where if you decline the service, you die. Capitalism has a lot of special case failures. We can talk about monopolies. The government maintains a monopoly on the use of force and is the ultimate arbiter of disputes, including disputes to which it is a party. You keep talking about how only rare skills prevent a wage from dropping to subsistence levels, yet the vast majority of workers make double or triple subsistence wages with common, baseline skills such as typing, picking up boxes, or holding stop signs at construction sites. What causes poverty in the US is individual problems like drug abuse, child abuse, poor diet, and poor hygiene. There are huge numbers of people that have jobs that are supposedly terrible when speaking to an elitist statist, but the people lead lives that are actually quite fulfilling if they have a decent head on their shoulders. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/35 "2017-12-31T05:07:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > A lot of Libertarians buy into the idea that the government is holding them back. As opposed to the statists who are known for taking individual responsibility seriously in their politics. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/36 "2017-12-31T05:46:49Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > We can talk about monopolies. The government maintains a monopoly on the use of force and is the ultimate arbiter of disputes, including disputes to which it is a party. Are you aware of even the concept of a ‘natural monopoly’? That’s a situation where the laws of nature mean that there are not realistically going to be more than 1-2 service providers in a given area. Examples : roads, power, sewage, internet, railroads, and to an extent, hospital care. In these cases, if the government didn’t regulate or provide the services themselves, capitalism would fail to provide service at a fair price. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/37 "2017-12-31T06:01:42Z")
Phone lines and rural electrification were heavily subsidized and pushed by government programs and initiatives. If it were purely capitalistic, many areas would still have neither. Only a government entity is going to be able to build a city wide sewer and water service. And seriously, injecting a profit motive into everything isn’t a magical cure-all for efficiency. “Profit” builds in its own inefficiencies. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/38 "2017-12-31T06:19:19Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Are you aware of even the concept of a ‘natural monopoly’? That’s a situation where the laws of nature mean that there are not realistically going to be more than 1-2 service providers in a given area. > > Examples : > > roads, power, sewage, internet, railroads, and to an extent, hospital care. > > In these cases, if the government didn’t regulate or provide the services themselves, capitalism would fail to provide service at a fair price. I disagree about internet, unless you are talking about the cable wiring. Even then, there are already competing types of cable that could provide better service if the local government didn’t favor a monopoly for reasons I don’t really understand. It is pretty much a given that those who have amassed a lot of money will do their best to jigger whatever system they find themselves in to keep that money and make lots more, at the expense of everyone else. If they find themselves in a social democracy, they will lobby and bribe (same thing) and get obscure laws passed that give them advantages, or persuade folks that their monopoly is best for everyone. If they find themselves in a country like Russia (however you would describe that economy) they make sure they are best friends with the big cheese, and never, ever challenge him about anything. If they find themselves in a wild west free-for-all, they hire more goons than the other guys and smash up their would-be competitors. I don’t think there has ever been a country or government that really tried to protect an open free market for more than 5 minutes. Also, and by the way, the folks who call themselves libertarians these days are either lying or deluding themselves. They are not interested in protecting open and free markets, they are interested in doing any or all of the things in the previous paragraph, as long as it redounds to their own advantage. “Free” markets are fine as long as they are free to do what they want and no-one else is able to do anything about it. Example: a real libertarian would say that the air does not belong to you, Mr. Industrialist, so you can’t dump your filthy smoke into it. Do I hear anyone saying that, ever? ::crickets:: ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/39 "2017-12-31T07:08:15Z")
From his _A Letter to a Young Gentleman, lately enter’d into Holy Orders_ > [@the Reverend Dr. Jonathan Swift](#): > > Others of them in the country, oppressing their tenants, tyrannizing over the neighbourhood, cheating the vicar, talking nonsense, and getting drunk at the sessions. It is from such seminaries as these, that the world is provided with the several tribes and denominations of freethinkers, who, in my judgment, are not to be reformed by arguments offered to prove the truth of the Christian religion, because **reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired** : … ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/40 "2017-12-31T07:38:54Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Far from a thoughtless dystopian diatribe, a world of free capitalism is a world of cooperation. Capitalism has done more for human cooperation than any religion or ideology could because it involves win-win exchanges. Provided all parties are starting from (perceived to be reasonably) level ground in terms of capital (broadly defined, not just finance, but information, skills/capabilities and confidence in themselves and each other). And that takes some form of mechanism of government/governance to agree, establish and enforce the relevant standards. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546.md?page=3)