# Libertarian solutions to poverty: do they make sense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 29, 2017, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546 "2017-12-29T23:17:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/81 "2018-01-01T17:54:52Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Really? Is that why my (at the time) self-employed spouse (who was working full time and even had employees, that is, was employing others as well) was dropped from private medical insurance and told they’d never cover him again at any cost back in the early 1990’s because of his birth defect? Oh, I suppose if he’d been taking better care of himself at 8 weeks post-conception (8 months prior to his birth) when the defect occurred it wouldn’t have happened so it’s really all his fault, he needed to be more responsible for his own health…:rolleyes: (That’s when I took a job at Blue Cross - it was the only way to get health insurance for him). > > No, in a free-for-all, non-regulated environment ONLY the healthy could get insurance. Those already sick, those who were _born_ with a problem not their fault, will not be covered because there’s no way to make a profit at it. > > Working for a large company that can provide insurance for workers and their family helps, but, again, in a libertarian paradise _there is no reason for them to do so_. Far easier to simply boot out the door anyone with less than perfect health or with sick family, because all of that costs money. And we know that will happen because it _did_ happen in the past, when companies routinely would fire people who were injured on the job or because sick for whatever reason and couldn’t show up one morning. I’m sorry the government dominated insurance world failed you. > [@Broomstick](#): > > You say that like it’s a _bad_ thing… > > Maybe if those rich people were more frugal when they had income and invested more wisely, avoided things like nice houses and cars and lived in shacks and drove beaters they’d be able to hold onto their wealth and live comfortably poor for lifetime. Isn’t that what you ask the poor to do - lived savagely austere lives with not a penny for comfort or small luxuries? Why should that change simply because one’s income goes up, right? > And why is stability bad? It is great that there is a class churn. It is what capitalism is all about. Those who best serve consumers are elevated, while others are not. Everyone froths at the mouth about the 1% while the top income earners are ever-changing. Everyone worries about the bottom, when those at the bottom nearly always rise up. A large part of so-called inequality is explained by differences in compensation relative to age. As a typical person proceeds through life, they start in the bottom quintile, peak somewhere in the upper quintiles, and then regress towards the end of life. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/82 "2018-01-01T17:56:59Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > It is odd the assertion: > > is accepted by all. > > But it is his ideology. I should have said in a capitalist country, not a backwater socialist democracy that feasts on generational wealth and protects the upper class from competition. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/83 "2018-01-01T17:58:26Z")
The reason I was never even close to being tempted to join or vote for Libertarians, is because I saw from the beginning, that they actually don’t support solving ANYTHING WHATSOEVER. They are essentially right-wing Republicans, who want to use entertainment drugs legally. Nothing more. This is no doubt why they always end up allying themselves to the Republicans, if they get anywhere near having power themselves. Look at their approach: it’s the same as the “free-market” people in the larger world. It consists of simply declaring that nothing is to be done consciously, and that all problems will solve themselves, if we just ignore them. The fact that every single time that a large region has lost all government ( and which fails to either recover it, or roll directly into a dictatorship of some kind), devolves into complete violent squalor and produces nothing but death and decay, completely escapes their notice. Just as it is invisible to them, that the reason why many government programs are inefficient, isn’t due to the lack of private for profit magic; it’s due to the program being sabotaged by the opposition to it existing at all, who shackle it with all manner of regulations and limits and demands for certainty that for every dime given to genuinely needy people, that fifty dollars be spent to insure that not even ONE person gets so much as a nickel that they don’t deserve. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/84 "2018-01-01T17:58:46Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The results are clear, governments kill and steal much more than corporations. The subjects of the Association internationale du Congo would have been very surprised to learn this although its shareholders profited well. Of course the assertion is not worth the electrons as it is making the mistake of assuming the difference is from the asserted idea of the consumer boycotts - there are no numbers from the data to support a conclusion like this. Of course the numerical economic history you do not believe in… ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/85 "2018-01-01T18:01:09Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I should have said in a capitalist country, not a backwater socialist democracy that feasts on generational wealth and protects the upper class from competition. Oh a backwater like the Germany? Funny. You meant of course the fantasy country of the ideological asserted imaginings. the actual data on the continuity of the transmission of the wealth and the association of protection is not something so easy as the ideological assertions a priori believed. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/86 "2018-01-01T18:01:54Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > See, this is what I don’t understand about the usual libertarian/Objectivist advocacy. We KNOW what a society without government regulation looks like and what it does to people. It’s HISTORY! But advocates of that philosophy always act like it’s never been tried. It HAS! And it didn’t work. It didn’t work so catastrophically that we made laws to prevent it. It was the era where a huge percentage of the population saw the biggest gains. The laws were passed in large part to protect WASP dominance and deliver heathen immigrants and Negros to salvation. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/87 "2018-01-01T18:05:14Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Oh a backwater like the Germany? > > Funny. > > You meant of course the fantasy country of the ideological asserted imaginings. > > the actual data on the continuity of the transmission of the wealth and the association of protection is not something so easy as the ideological assertions a priori believed. Yes there are skilled technocrats in Germany that have cobbled together something pretty good. The fact remains that in the backwaters of Europe you are familiar with, the upper class enjoys much more stability than in more capitalist countries. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/88 "2018-01-01T18:06:56Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > The subjects of the Association internationale du Congo would have been very surprised to learn this although its shareholders profited well. > > Of course the assertion is not worth the electrons as it is making the mistake of assuming the difference is from the asserted idea of the consumer boycotts - there are no numbers from the data to support a conclusion like this. > > Of course the numerical economic history you do not believe in… You talk a lot about data, but I never see it. Are you some type of bureaucrat? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/89 "2018-01-01T18:08:40Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > The reason I was never even close to being tempted to join or vote for Libertarians, is because I saw from the beginning, that they actually don’t support solving ANYTHING WHATSOEVER. > > They are essentially right-wing Republicans, who want to use entertainment drugs legally. Nothing more. This is no doubt why they always end up allying themselves to the Republicans, if they get anywhere near having power themselves. > > Look at their approach: it’s the same as the “free-market” people in the larger world. It consists of simply declaring that nothing is to be done consciously, and that all problems will solve themselves, if we just ignore them. > > The fact that every single time that a large region has lost all government ( and which fails to either recover it, or roll directly into a dictatorship of some kind), devolves into complete violent squalor and produces nothing but death and decay, completely escapes their notice. > > Just as it is invisible to them, that the reason why many government programs are inefficient, isn’t due to the lack of private for profit magic; it’s due to the program being sabotaged by the opposition to it existing at all, who shackle it with all manner of regulations and limits and demands for certainty that for every dime given to genuinely needy people, that fifty dollars be spent to insure that not even ONE person gets so much as a nickel that they don’t deserve. So you see no difference between Republicans and libertarians on foreign policy and human rights? It’s observant people like you who ought to speak out more! ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/90 "2018-01-01T18:13:25Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > The subjects of the Association internationale du Congo would have been very surprised to learn this although its shareholders profited well. First: Stalin Then: Reread my sentence. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/91 "2018-01-01T18:18:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Not all consumers are created equal. > > Some customers are more trouble than they’re worth - literally. They cost more in time and labor to deal with than we can profit from them. When they say “we aren’t coming back!” we say GOOD! > > If a mill pollutes the stream that provides drinking water to a downstream community it’s not going to care if those individuals aren’t customers. > > See Gilded Age and Early 20th Century for reference examples. See: > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Not all voters are created equal. > > Some voters are more trouble than they’re worth - literally. They cost more in taxed loot to deal with than we can tax from them. When they say “we aren’t coming back!” Government says GOOD! > > If a tax paying mill pollutes the stream that provides drinking water to a downstream community the government is not going to care if those individuals aren’t voters that make up a majority of the electorate. > > See 20th Century for reference examples. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/92 "2018-01-01T18:26:16Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes there are skilled technocrats in Germany that have cobbled together something pretty good. The fact remains that in the backwaters of Europe you are familiar with, the upper class enjoys much more stability than in more capitalist countries. Funny. Very funny. The Western European backwater. Well it is the rhetoric required > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You talk a lot about data, but I never see it. Are you some type of bureaucrat? No I am an economist and I am an officer in a private investment house. The real world of the real investment. No ideological fantasies for this work. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > First: > > Stalin > > Then: > > Reread my sentence. First non sequitor and no need to reread. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/93 "2018-01-01T18:37:29Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > You don’t know anything about the poor, but you don’t know anything about the rich either. Care to give a cite about the massive number of rich people falling out of being rich? You might explain how the increase in income inequality, and the continued accumulation of wealth by the top 0.1% supports your statement. > > Entrepreneurs aren’t rich when they start - they are rich once their company does an IPO. And many don’t put their money in the game. (Those who can’t, such as small business owners, are never rich.) If they happen to keep all their money in company stock, then they might get poorer (unlikely) but any decent financial advisor would tell them to diversify. > The stock of the company I used to work for tanked after the bubble, but our founder/CEO stayed a billionaire. > Of course there are a few actors and sports figures who throw their money away, but that is rare. Once you have a good bit of money, enough so that the slings and arrows of outrageous repairs don’t matter much, it is easy to keep a good bit of money. Perhaps I am forbidden to adopt your purely anecdotal style for a spell. “But the very opposite conclusion arises in studies that follow actual flesh-and-blood individuals over time, most of whom move up across the various income brackets with the passing years. Most working Americans who were initially in the bottom 20 percent of income-earners, rise out of that bottom 20 percent. More of them end up in the top 20 percent than remain in the bottom 20 percent.” “People who were initially in the bottom 20 percent in income have had the highest rate of increase in their incomes, while those who were initially in the top 20 percent have had the lowest. This is the direct opposite of the pattern found when following income brackets over time, rather than following individual people.” -Thomas Sowell > **[Economic Mobility](https://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2013/03/06/economic-mobility-n1525556?amp=true)** > > Most people are not even surprised any more when they hear about someone who came here from Korea or Vietnam with very little money, and very little knowledge of English, who nevertheless persevered and rose in American society. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/94 "2018-01-01T18:41:15Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Funny. Very funny. > > The Western European backwater. > > Well it is the rhetoric required > > No I am an economist and I am an officer in a private investment house. The real world of the real investment. > > No ideological fantasies for this work. > > First non sequitor and no need to reread. Then you should know more about economic mobility, nothing to be proud of. I claimed governments kill and steal more than corporations. You suggested one destructive “corporation”. Your clients would not be impressed. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/95 "2018-01-01T18:47:36Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Not true. The mechanism for checking the government does not kick in until you reach that 50% threshold. Corporations are checked on the margins. For every consumer that boycotts their actions, they lose that much revenue. This is a much more effective check. The results are clear, governments kill and steal much more than corporations. Of course governments kill and steal more than corporations. As you endlessly talk about, governments uphold a monopoly on force. It’s illegal for corporations to use force to kill or steal. Your plan is that we should remove those restrictions and allow thousands of corporations to have the same ability to kill and steal that one government currently has. Sensible people see that that would increase killing and stealing by a thousandfold. As for boycotts, what happens when somebody argues with the government and tries to boycott the government? I’m sure you’re eager to answer that question. But now answer this one; if you give corporations the same freedom to act that the government has, what would happen when somebody argues with a corporation and tries to boycott that corporation? This is why your theories won’t work. You constantly complain about how the government abuses its powers. But your solution is to give thousands of other organizations those same powers. Corporations that have the power of the government would act like the government. Worse actually; they wouldn’t have the restrain on their actions that elections put on the government. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/96 "2018-01-01T19:00:29Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > The Repressed on the other hand, can’t find work because there isn’t enough capital (due to theft from taxes) or enough return on investment (due to onerous regulations) for employers to start or expand a business to provide work for the available labor. Stripping the theft of taxes that go to welfare from the system, and stripping the unnecessary regulations, will mean a booming economy that will allowed the Repressed to find work. This is the tested and failed “trickle-down theory”. The basic problem with it is that increased availability of capital and profit does not translate directly into increased jobs, because there’s just no reason it would – if I need to employ ten people to produce all the widgets my customers want, lowering my taxes doesn’t change the fact that I don’t need and therefore will not hire an eleventh person. Lowering _my customers’_ taxes might help (or might not, if they’re already able to afford all the widgets they want), which is why tax relief directed toward the lower to middle income ranges (which buy most of the stuff, either directly or indirectly by buying the stuff made using the tools-to-make-the-tools) is more effective than trickle-down cuts for the top income ranges. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/97 "2018-01-01T19:01:36Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Then you should know more about economic mobility I have a reasonable reading in the actual real economic study of the economic mobility and the challenges limited data available to make conclusions about the real transmission of the wealth, and in particular the problems of knowing the degree of the social retransmission. But since I have learned the data based economics and not the extreme ideology pretending to be an economics, but in reality a social philosophy, I avoid the black-and-white conclusions asserted without good data to support. > [@](#): > > I claimed governments kill and steal more than corporations. You suggested one destructive “corporation”. Your clients would not be impressed. My clients would be amused I think, since they are not the americain libertarians, but they are irrelevant to this in all ways. You make simplistic claims based on a collosal amount of asserted ideas without foundation in the actual evidence and with huge confusions between the cause and the effect… I cited the instance of the utter amoral rapacity of the corporation outside of the government framework - as an illustration of the extreme naïveté of your proposition, which packed in so many extreme assumptions … well it is boring and time consuming to unpack these. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Of course governments kill and steal more than corporations. As you endlessly talk about, governments uphold a monopoly on force. It’s illegal for corporations to use force to kill or steal. Indeed - in the real world where there is not a government, there are fine examples of the direct corproate control (the infamous company towns outside of effective government contorl, the Belgian Congo before its nationalization and the extreme abuses that even managed to shock the racist European powers of the 1890s [although nicely profitable to the shareholders before the nationalization]). > [@](#): > > Your plan is that we should remove those restrictions and allow thousands of corporations to have the same ability to kill and steal that one government currently has. Sensible people see that that would increase killing and stealing by a thousandfold. He imagines due to his a priori conclusions based on his ideology that the corporation will behave in the same fashion as if there was the state to restrain it or them. It is entirely unexamined what is the restraint, it is simply asserted. All the bad done by government is ascribed to the abstract entity “government” due to the ideological understanding that the entity itself is bad, not that the badness is indeed coming from the human being and the seeking of the power and the monopoly of the resources. > [@](#): > > As for boycotts, what happens when somebody argues with the government and tries to boycott the government? I’m sure you’re eager to answer that question. But now answer this one; if you give corporations the same freedom to act that the government has, what would happen when somebody argues with a corporation and tries to boycott that corporation? See the Belgian Congo. The hands get cut off… ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/98 "2018-01-01T19:12:23Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > What if I act like a child? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/gwFvNYSCmhM/hqdefault.jpg "Courageous Man Refuses To Believe He Has Cancer") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwFvNYSCmhM) ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/99 "2018-01-01T19:12:41Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > It is very difficult to remain rich It is “difficult” to put seven-figure sums into a couple of widely diversified funds and live a luxurious lifestyle off the interest? What counts as “easy” on your planet? Breathing? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/100 "2018-01-01T19:16:47Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > It is “difficult” to put seven-figure sums into a couple of widely diversified funds and live a luxurious lifestyle off the interest? What counts as “easy” on your planet? Breathing? Supposedly 60% of the time a family fortune is gone by the time the kids have had access to it. 90% of the time it is gone by the time the grandkids have had access to it. However I don’t know what counts as a ‘fortune’ in that situation. If it is an estate worth a few hundred thousand or maybe a few million, yeah that is possible. But if it is in the billions I"m sure trusts can be established (like the Johnsons, Rockefellers, etc do). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546.md?page=6)