# Libertarian solutions to poverty: do they make sense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 29, 2017, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546 "2017-12-29T23:17:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/101 "2018-01-01T20:32:01Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > It is “difficult” to put seven-figure sums into a couple of widely diversified funds and live a luxurious lifestyle off the interest? What counts as “easy” on your planet? Breathing? It’s pretty fascinating how on the first page the advice to not be poor is to avoid sex or alcohol, work through high school, don’t use credit, and never act anything other than perfectly professional except in complete privacy. But on page two, we’re supposed to have sympathy for those rich people who use drugs and alcohol liberally, bang away like there’s no tomorrow, and use credit like madmen if they fail to put some of their riches into safe ventures and just leave it there. Starting rich and staying rich is completely trivial, and requires far less effort than what was laid out as the ‘plan to be middle class, maybe’, but we’re supposed to believe that it’s difficult to retain riches in today’s society. There really is a complete fantasy construction about how wealth works in the real world behind libertarian/conservative ideaology. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/102 "2018-01-01T21:14:53Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > By not hampering market processes with disincentives for production, production will increase. Out of this increased production, the truly needy will be cared for. No they won’t. Read the OP again. The first premise of libertarian thinking is to get rid of all the means of taking care of the needy. But the first part is almost right, you just meant to say “_ **profits** _ will increase”. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > College debt is a behavioral problem. > > Medical bills for most are also behavioral problems. If they were integrated into productive society, they would be insured for non-behavioral issues. “If you get sick it’s your own fault.” > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I’m sorry the government dominated insurance world failed you. Ah, the old “health insurance sucks because the government meddles with it”. Oddly enough, where I live, the government **is** the health insurance. It’s the entirety of it. And it hasn’t failed me. In fact it provides cost/benefits I’d never get under private insurance. You do seem to have a lot of strange ideas. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So you see no difference between Republicans and libertarians on foreign policy and human rights? It’s observant people like you who ought to speak out more! I believe **Igor** was oversimplifying slightly, though fondness for recreational drugs is, in fact, a major difference between libertarians and Republicans. But you’re right, there are are other differences. Republicans like bombing the shit out of other countries, while libertarians believe the government should not intervene in anything anywhere, whether foreign or domestic. Government should not, in fact, exist at all, am I right? I’m not quite sure about the human rights bit. I recall that when Ron Paul was asked what an uninsured person with a serious illness should do, his libertarian supporters yelled out that he should die. Ron Paul himself was a bit more circumspect. He said that the guy’s church or his neighbors or somebody would help him, he was sure. But if not, then not. Yeah, human rights seems to rate pretty high with this bunch. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > First: > > Stalin > > Then: > > Reread my sentence. Don’t forget Hitler! Seems like Stalin and Hitler are the typical icons for “government” in the libertarian mindset. Oddly enough, neither of them are around in the democracies I know of – the places with the health care and the social services. Maybe “government” – the kind that people freely elect – doesn’t mean what you think it does. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/103 "2018-01-01T22:35:17Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > What if I act like a child? I’m doing my best to do exactly that, and I haven’t gotten cancer yet! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/104 "2018-01-01T23:01:08Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Perhaps I am forbidden to adopt your purely anecdotal style for a spell. > > “But the very opposite conclusion arises in studies that follow actual flesh-and-blood individuals over time, most of whom move up across the various income brackets with the passing years. Most working Americans who were initially in the bottom 20 percent of income-earners, rise out of that bottom 20 percent. More of them end up in the top 20 percent than remain in the bottom 20 percent.” > > “People who were initially in the bottom 20 percent in income have had the highest rate of increase in their incomes, while those who were initially in the top 20 percent have had the lowest. This is the direct opposite of the pattern found when following income brackets over time, rather than following individual people.” > > -Thomas Sowell > > [https://www.google.com/amp/s/townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2013/03/06/economic-mobility-n1525556%3Famp=true](https://www.google.com/amp/s/townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2013/03/06/economic-mobility-n1525556%3famp=true) An unbiased source, eh? Try [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_United_States) > [@](#): > > In recent years, several studies have found that vertical intergenerational mobility is lower in the US than in some European countries.[3] US social mobility has either remained unchanged or decreased since the 1970s.[4][5][6][7] A study conducted by the Pew Charitable Trusts found that the bottom quintile is 57% likely to experience upward mobility and only 7% to experience downward mobility.[8] > > A study published in 2008 showed that economic mobility in the U.S. increased from 1950 to 1980, but has declined sharply since 1980.[9] > > A 2013 Brookings Institution study found income inequality was increasing and becoming more permanent, sharply reducing social mobility.[10] > > A large academic study released in 2014 found US mobility overall has not changed appreciably in the last 25 years (for children born between 1971 and 1996), but a variety of up and down mobility changes were found in several different parts of the country. On average, American children entering the labor market today have the same chances of moving up in the income distribution (relative to their parents) as children born in the 1970s. [11][12] > > However, because US income inequalities have increased substantially, the consequences of the “birth lottery” - the parents to whom a child is born - are larger today than in the past. US wealth is increasingly concentrated in the top 10% of American families, so children of the remaining 90% are more likely to be born at lower starting incomes today than the same children in the past. Even if they are equally mobile and climb the same distance up the US socioeconomic ladder as children born 25 years earlier, the bottom 90% of the ladder is worth less now, so they gain less income value from their climb … especially when compared to the top 10%. [11][12] Sowell’s point on growth is pretty worthless. It is clearly simpler for someone in the bottom 20% to increase income (from getting a job, say) than someone making $5 million a year. And no doubt those sitting at 1% fall down to 1.5% or something. Hardly becoming poor. None of which supports your assertion that rich people fall out of being rich in substantial numbers. And especially not competent ones. I’ve been retired for a year and a half. I haven’t chosen to get Social Security yet. I’m not anywhere near the 1%, but we have lived quite comfortably in this time and we have more money in our account than when we started. Staying well to do is not hard - not if you get that way. BTW, also note that the decrease in mobility started in 1980. Hmm, wonder what happened that year. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/105 "2018-01-01T23:06:17Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Then you should know more about economic mobility, nothing to be proud of. > > I claimed governments kill and steal more than corporations. You suggested one destructive “corporation”. Your clients would not be impressed. Today governments do kill more than corporations, particularly if there is a war on. In the libertarian utopia of the 1880s and 1890s I suspect corporations killed a lot more - due to sweatshops, pollution, selling poison as medicine, etc. You can thank those horrid regulations for it not being true today. As for stealing, it depends on how you define stealing. If you define taxation as stealing, sure - but that would be asinine. Otherwise we have corporate theft programs like Trump U. Probably more of those than real government theft. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/106 "2018-01-01T23:12:49Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > See the Belgian Congo. > > The hands get cut off… That’s an even better example than you note. I lived there right after independence. The Katanga War, (the cause of the UN intervention) was corporately sponsored. (Union Minere, excuse the lack of accents.) ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/107 "2018-01-01T23:14:32Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Today governments do kill more than corporations, particularly if there is a war on. In the libertarian utopia of the 1880s and 1890s I suspect corporations killed a lot more - due to sweatshops, pollution, selling poison as medicine, etc. You can thank those horrid regulations for it not being true today. > > As for stealing, it depends on how you define stealing. If you define taxation as stealing, sure - but that would be asinine. Otherwise we have corporate theft programs like Trump U. Probably more of those than real government theft. Of all the people killed by governments in the 20th century, most were killed under 3 governments. The Nazis in Germany, the communists under Stalin and the communists in China under Mao. Take those 3 out and the number of government deaths drops in half at least. There have been hundreds of governments in the 20th century, but only a few were total bloodbaths. According to [this](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/10/19/pollution-kills-9-million-people-each-year-new-study-finds/?utm_term=.33ba53232d4e), pollution kills 9 million a year. However part of those deaths are from people burning dung and wood for fuel indoors, which you can’t blame on corporations. However industrial pollution you can. I’m all for corporations, but I’m also for adding regulations to increase safety and sustainability even if it increases prices. I don’t know how many people are killed by governments each year, but government backed conflict probably kills a few hundred thousand. According to [this](http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Healthday/story?id=5207645&page=1), the period 1985-1994 saw about 378,000 deaths a year due to warfare. The world is less warlike now than in the past, so the number now is hopefully lower. Either way, pollution probably kills 20-30x more people than war, if not more. War seems to be by far the major cause of government sponsored death. Executions aren’t that common globally and probably only number in the thousands each year. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/108 "2018-01-02T02:28:55Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’ve been retired for a year and a half. I haven’t chosen to get Social Security yet. I’m not anywhere near the 1%, but we have lived quite comfortably in this time and we have more money in our account than when we started. Staying well to do is not hard - not if you get that way. > > BTW, also note that the decrease in mobility started in 1980. Hmm, wonder what happened that year. Voyager, I know you feel comfortable. But in absolute dollar amounts, does it bother you a little that out of the value you created during your working career, you basically were cheated? That’s what the wage : productivity gap really _means_. We have managed to make our economy a whole bunch more productive, and yet we are sharing all the benefits of that increased productivity with basically only 1% of the population. And most of the actual physical ideas that make our economy better…mostly technology…were developed mainly by scientists and engineers who themselves usually don’t end up in the top 1%. Occasionally, a single person makes such a large advance by themselves that they are considered the ‘inventor’, and even more rarely still, sometimes they manage to even keep a fair share of the profits. Similarly, you might look at a wealthy person’s estate, and realize that it’s pretty damn nice, right? But who hand-built those bughattis, crafted the 20,000 square foot mansion, who guards the place, who did the landscaping and architecture and all that? Hundreds of thousands of labor hours (or more) from other people. All in return for…well…some wealthy people do actively lead businesses, etc, but it’s hard to say how their labor is worth what the pay rates actually are. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/109 "2018-01-02T02:38:52Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > As is having the audacity to want to eat while in college. Eating has nothing to do with college debt. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/110 "2018-01-02T02:49:30Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Eating has nothing to do with college debt. Do you ever have a _real_ point to make? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/111 "2018-01-02T02:59:36Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Eating has nothing to do with college debt. Technically you could take a few hundred dollars less loans out every year if you spent the minimum amount possible on food. Maybe even $1000, if you really scrounge and your school has really overpriced on campus dining options…and you aren’t just required to buy a meal plan to stay in the dorms. Totally going to help when the school charges $60,000 every year in tuition and fees. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/112 "2018-01-02T04:15:04Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Technically you could take a few hundred dollars less loans out every year if you spent the minimum amount possible on food. Maybe even $1000, if you really scrounge and your school has really overpriced on campus dining options…and you aren’t just required to buy a meal plan to stay in the dorms. > > Totally going to help when the school charges $60,000 every year in tuition and fees. And if one didn’t go to college for whatever reason, he’d still have to eat. Eating is completely separate from college debt. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/113 "2018-01-02T05:10:26Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I’m sorry the government dominated insurance world failed you. How on earth did you come up with THAT when I explained how the _private insurance industry_ failed us? It was not until the GOVERNMENT forbid deny insurance based on pre-existing conditions that we were able to get insurance outside of working for the insurance company itself. > [@](#): > > It is great that there is a class churn. It is what capitalism is all about. Those who best serve consumers are elevated, while others are not. Everyone froths at the mouth about the 1% while the top income earners are ever-changing. The top 1% did not start on the bottom - they either inherited all their money, or they inherited a nest-egg that they further multiplied. That’s the great fiction - that somehow the incredibly wealthy earned every penny through hard work. > [@](#): > > As a typical person proceeds through life, they start in the bottom quintile, peak somewhere in the upper quintiles, and then regress towards the end of life. Riiiiight… because dying in poverty is so damn _wonderful…!_ :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/114 "2018-01-02T09:27:12Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > … It is entirely unexamined what is the restraint, it is simply asserted… It would help us understand if the Farnaby-style libertarians flesh out their Utopia a little better. Are police forces and courts of law also privatised? How are judges selected? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/115 "2018-01-02T14:50:54Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > And if one didn’t go to college for whatever reason, he’d still have to eat. Eating is completely separate from college debt. As SamuelA wrote, many colleges require students to sign up for a meal program, which often costs more than what a non-student would spend on food. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/116 "2018-01-02T15:16:47Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > As SamuelA wrote, many colleges require students to sign up for a meal program, which often costs more than what a non-student would spend on food. I just looked up the cost at my old University. The unlimited plan, which allows as many meals as you might like at dorms, fast food outlets, and coffee shops on campus runs $10 per day. Hardly a reason to go into debt. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/117 "2018-01-02T15:21:23Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I just looked up the cost at my old University. The unlimited plan, which allows as many meals as you might like at dorms, fast food outlets, and coffee shops on campus runs $10 per day. > > Hardly a reason to go into debt. Do you actually pay per day or per semester/quarter? Is it a separate payment or is it part of a single payment that covers tuition/dorms/meals/etc? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/118 "2018-01-02T15:27:06Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > And if one didn’t go to college for whatever reason, he’d still have to eat. Eating is completely separate from college debt. And if one doesn’t go to college, then one can work a full time job or two in order to pay bills and buy food. College itself is pretty much a full time job. Working a full time job in order to eat as well as do all the work that is expected of you in college gets a little bit rough. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/119 "2018-01-02T15:31:45Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I just looked up the cost at my old University. The unlimited plan, which allows as many meals as you might like at dorms, fast food outlets, and coffee shops on campus runs $10 per day. > > Hardly a reason to go into debt. That’s a very generous plan. When I went to college 20 years ago, the plan was about $12 a day for the 2 meal a day plan, and $15 for the 3. You had to eat at specific cafeterias that were run by the college, (with some pretty sub-par food)did not cover fast food outlets or coffee shops. Do you feel that your experience is universal? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546/120 "2018-01-02T15:34:29Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s a very generous plan. When I went to college 20 years ago, the plan was about $12 a day for the 2 meal a day plan, and $15 for the 3. You had to eat at specific cafeterias that were run by the college, (with some pretty sub-par food)did not cover fast food outlets or coffee shops. > > Do you feel that your experience is universal? I looked at several of the University of California system campuses. Residence halls include a meal plan, no option. The charge is for room and board. For student apartment housing, you can choose a meal plan but it gets paid as part of the housing cost if you choose one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-solutions-to-poverty-do-they-make-sense/805546.md?page=7)