# Libertarianism: All the Freedom, and none of the Responsibility! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 16, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673 "2013-07-16T15:22:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/21 "2013-07-16T16:23:10Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > “The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579. > > There are other decisions as well that say something similar, but one is enough. Driving IS a human right. You will note that the ruling states “travel” and “transport his property”, not “drive”. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/22 "2013-07-16T16:23:15Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > I won’t pretend I know the answer to this problem, but one thing we CAN do is eliminate traffic laws. Paging Max Rocketansky… Max, there’s a guy standing in the middle of the road saying we don’t need no steenkin’ rules. ---
**Author:** ![rEVOLutionary](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revolutionary/32/7311_2.png) [@rEVOLutionary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rEVOLutionary)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/23 "2013-07-16T16:25:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You will note that the ruling states “travel” and “transport his property”, not “drive”. I do not know of any other way to travel in an automobile… ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/24 "2013-07-16T16:31:22Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > My real issue is not with the taxes, but with the traffic laws that violate your human right to travel without restriction. And where to you get the idea that you have a human right to travel without restriction? Your earlier quote said that people have the right to travel on public roads in automobiles. It doesn’t say there are no restrictions on such travel. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/25 "2013-07-16T16:32:26Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > I do not know of any other way to travel in an automobile… You don’t know of any other way of travelling in an automobile, than being the operator of it? ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/26 "2013-07-16T16:35:40Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > There are other decisions as well that say something similar, but one is enough. Driving IS a human right. Sorry - no sale. Despite what the Supremes may think or sing out, human rights are those provided all humans in theory. To some degree life, liberty, freedom from torture and oppression - although some folks would argue the list and debate just what qualifies as oppression. Cars? Not even close. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/27 "2013-07-16T16:38:35Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > You don’t know of any other way of travelling in an automobile, than being the operator of it? Are you suggesting he might have some sort of acquaintance that is positively disposed towards him that might allow him to ride in a motor vehicle that they are operating? ---
**Author:** ![rEVOLutionary](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revolutionary/32/7311_2.png) [@rEVOLutionary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rEVOLutionary)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/28 "2013-07-16T16:39:37Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > And where to you get the idea that you have a human right to travel without restriction? Your earlier quote said that people have the right to travel on public roads in automobiles. It doesn’t say there are no restrictions on such travel. Traffic violations are not crimes under Common Law, which is where the human right to travel is contained, as referenced in the SC decision. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/29 "2013-07-16T16:40:20Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Are you suggesting he might have some sort of acquaintance that is positively disposed towards him that might allow him to ride in a motor vehicle that they are operating? Hell, I ask complete strangers to do it! I live on the edge! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/30 "2013-07-16T16:42:21Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > Traffic violations are not crimes under Common Law, which is where the human right to travel is contained, as referenced in the SC decision. So? Where does it say that the means of travel cannot be restricted? ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/31 "2013-07-16T16:43:41Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > You don’t know of any other way of travelling in an automobile, than being the operator of it? Odd thing – trains and planes. Don’t seem to be in the same category, do they? Whats up with that? Johnny, you and I may disagree a lot. But please do not confuse “Libertarian” with “motorhead”. Some day link me to the thread that birthed this baby. ---
**Author:** ![rEVOLutionary](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revolutionary/32/7311_2.png) [@rEVOLutionary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rEVOLutionary)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/32 "2013-07-16T16:44:53Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > So? > > Where does it say that the means of travel cannot be restricted? How else, outside of traffic laws, would the right to travel be restricted on public roads? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/33 "2013-07-16T16:49:01Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > How else, outside of traffic laws, would the right to travel be restricted on public roads? Please show me in the decision you quoted, or find another reputable citation, where it says there cannot be restrictions on the means of travel. What you posted says that people have the right to travel on public roads. It does not say that there cannot be restrictions on such travel. Restriction does not equal prohibition. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/34 "2013-07-16T16:51:07Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > My real issue is not with the taxes, but with the traffic laws that violate your human right to travel without restriction. What traffic laws are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/35 "2013-07-16T16:53:57Z")
I’m reminded of my friend who lives in Northern Virginia. After the last election, campaign signs were removed from medians and other public spaces. Well, except for signs for one candidate. Want to guess which party he belonged to? Hint: the party that thinks people would generally act responsibly but for all that state coercion that is going on all over the place. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/36 "2013-07-16T16:54:18Z")
I’ve always looked at Libertarianism as passive-aggressive nonsense. On the surface, everything that conservatives and liberals hate about government, libertarians do even more. It’s easy to fall for this kind of rhetoric. Where they fail, is that they offer no functional alternative of their own. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/37 "2013-07-16T16:58:48Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > I’ve always looked at Libertarianism as passive-aggressive nonsense. On the surface, everything that conservatives and liberals hate about government, libertarians do even more. It’s easy to fall for this kind of rhetoric. > > Where they fail, is that they offer no functional alternative of their own. …to the point where their sole contribution is to say, “No, that’s not right” when someone tries to bring their airy hand-waving down to a concrete example. I can think up fifty socio-political systems that will work perfectly in general terms, especially if I’m allowed to just posit that every single individual within it will play by the rules. It’s those damned details and cranky humans that screw it all up. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/38 "2013-07-16T17:00:13Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > Johnny, you and I may disagree a lot. But please do not confuse “Libertarian” with “motorhead”. Some day link me to the thread that birthed this baby. Do we? If we do, you must not be very disagreeable. I hope I am not to disagreeable to you. There is no one link that prompted this thread. It’s the general ‘Taxes are Theft’ meme that I see everywhere, and that ‘Socialism is Bad’. Libertarians, in particular, whinge on about how bad ‘socialism’ is. And yet, they take advantage of it at every opportunity. ‘Hey, as long as it’s there, I’d be a fool not to take advantage of it!’ Roads need to be paid for, but many believe that _they_ shouldn’t have to pay for them. Same with other government services. If they don’t use it, it’s socialism and the first step down the road to becoming North Korea. A lot of farmers think that paying taxes that pay for one thing is bad; but don’t dare cut their subsidies! Some people rail against environmental regulations. If there were no regulations, then what’s to stop someone from using property adjacent to theirs as a dumping ground for toxic waste? And so on, and so on, and so on… The post linked in the OP finally pushed me to starting a thread, but it’s not the ‘one thing’ that prompted it; it’s a building up of many things. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/39 "2013-07-16T17:02:03Z")
Ah, these Ronulans, they are always so amusing. Like looking at the world through novelty glasses that turn everything upside down and backwards. ---
**Author:** ![rEVOLutionary](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revolutionary/32/7311_2.png) [@rEVOLutionary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rEVOLutionary)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/40 "2013-07-16T17:22:54Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Do we? If we do, you must not be very disagreeable. I hope I am not to disagreeable to you. > > There is no one link that prompted this thread. It’s the general ‘Taxes are Theft’ meme that I see everywhere, and that ‘Socialism is Bad’. > > Libertarians, in particular, whinge on about how bad ‘socialism’ is. And yet, they take advantage of it at every opportunity. ‘Hey, as long as it’s there, I’d be a fool not to take advantage of it!’ Roads need to be paid for, but many believe that _they_ shouldn’t have to pay for them. Same with other government services. If they don’t use it, it’s socialism and the first step down the road to becoming North Korea. A lot of farmers think that paying taxes that pay for one thing is bad; but don’t dare cut their subsidies! Some people rail against environmental regulations. If there were no regulations, then what’s to stop someone from using property adjacent to theirs as a dumping ground for toxic waste? And so on, and so on, and so on… > > The post linked in the OP finally pushed me to starting a thread, but it’s not the ‘one thing’ that prompted it; it’s a building up of many things. It seems as though your making a lot of wild generalizations. I’ve never heard any Libertarians say any of the stuff you posted above. And how are income taxes NOT theft? It implies that the government owns ~1/3 of your labor. You are entitled to the fruits of your labor. The government has no business taking hard-earned money from you. I would like to see a single good argument in favor of income taxes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673.md?page=3)