# Libertarianism: All the Freedom, and none of the Responsibility! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 16, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673 "2013-07-16T15:22:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/41 "2013-07-16T17:31:09Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > “The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579. > > There are other decisions as well that say something similar, but one is enough. Driving IS a human right. Serious question: what year was this case decided? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/42 "2013-07-16T17:34:55Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > I would like to see a single good argument in favor of income taxes. Because civil society\*. - You said one good argument. You said nothing about an argument that you’d be willing to accept on pure merit or one that has to comply with your ill considered and narcissistic world view. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/43 "2013-07-16T17:45:08Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > And how are income taxes NOT theft? It implies that the government owns ~1/3 of your labor. You are entitled to the fruits of your labor. The government has no business taking hard-earned money from you. I would like to see a single good argument in favor of income taxes. Um… Read this thread. Taxes are not theft because they pay for the things that people use. If you wish to use public roads and avail yourself of other public services, and you refuse to pay for them, then _you_ are the one committing theft. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/44 "2013-07-16T17:50:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Serious question: what year was this case decided? 1930, apparently. That from a Wiki page that quotes the passage in this thread. Searching on “Thompson v. Smith” “154 SE 579” turns up a buttload of pages that remind me of the Freemen on the Land style of thinking. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/45 "2013-07-16T17:52:31Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > “The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579. > > There are other decisions as well that say something similar, but one is enough. Driving IS a human right. Have to been told you can’t travel to another state or city by a government agency? Just because you have to obey traffic laws doesn’t mean you’re not free to go where you want. How can driving be a human right when the car was only invented relatively recently? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/46 "2013-07-16T17:53:20Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > 1930, apparently. That from a Wiki page that quotes the passage in this thread. > > Searching on “Thompson v. Smith” “154 SE 579” turns up a buttload of pages that remind me of the Freemen on the Land style of thinking. Ah, I see. It is funny how the little fact that gets omitted in all those mentions is that the Supreme Court that made this ruling is actually… the Supreme Court of Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![rEVOLutionary](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revolutionary/32/7311_2.png) [@rEVOLutionary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rEVOLutionary)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/47 "2013-07-16T17:53:44Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Um… Read this thread. > > Taxes are not theft because they pay for the things that people use. If you wish to use public roads and avail yourself of other public services, and you refuse to pay for them, then _you_ are the one committing theft. I said INCOME taxes are theft, not ALL taxes. I don’t remember the exact percentage, but the federal income tax only makes up like ~44% of what the federal government brings in yearly. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/48 "2013-07-16T17:56:47Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > I said INCOME taxes are theft, not ALL taxes. I don’t remember the exact percentage, but the federal income tax only makes up like ~44% of what the federal government brings in yearly. How do you plan to pay for all those programs you use with 44% less money? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/49 "2013-07-16T17:58:11Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > I said INCOME taxes are theft, not ALL taxes. I don’t remember the exact percentage, but the federal income tax only makes up like ~44% of what the federal government brings in yearly. Nearly half the budget is a pretty big percentage. If not income tax, how do you propose to get people to pay to support everything our taxes support? EDIT: Or what **runner pat** said. . ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/50 "2013-07-16T18:00:56Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > I said INCOME taxes are theft, not ALL taxes. I don’t remember the exact percentage, but the federal income tax only makes up like ~44% of what the federal government brings in yearly. Where does the money for national defense come from? Who provides millions of dollars in disaster relief? National Institute of Health medical research is funded by…? NASA? National Arts and Sciences? Student loans? Veteran benefits? …etc. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/51 "2013-07-16T18:01:31Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > I would like to see a single good argument in favor of income taxes. They work. They bring in the revenue and they spread the tax burden around bearably. That’s why most governments rely on them. ---
**Author:** ![rEVOLutionary](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revolutionary/32/7311_2.png) [@rEVOLutionary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rEVOLutionary)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/52 "2013-07-16T18:01:42Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Nearly half the budget is a pretty big percentage. > > If not income tax, how do you propose to get people to pay to support everything our taxes support? > > EDIT: Or what **runner pat** said. > > . Here’s a crazy idea: the government may have to cut wasteful spending and actually budget. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/53 "2013-07-16T18:05:47Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > Here’s a crazy idea: the government may have to cut wasteful spending and actually budget. Who decides what is wasteful, and what isn’t? You? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/54 "2013-07-16T18:07:41Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > Here’s a crazy idea: the government may have to cut wasteful spending and actually budget. [5% of the budget](http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2011-02-19/news/fl-federal-government-waste-20110219_1_medicare-fraud-federal-agencies-error-rate) goes to waste. > [@](#): > > Each year, the federal government squanders an astonishing amount of your tax dollars on payments that are just plain wrong, including Social Security checks to the dead or incarcerated, free lunches to schoolchildren who don’t qualify and unemployment benefits to the employed. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/55 "2013-07-16T18:14:52Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > My impression of Libertarians is that they want the freedom to do what they want, when they want, and nobody has the right to make them do otherwise… > > I suggest for them a new motto: ‘Libertarianism: All the Freedom, and none of the Responsibility’ I would suggest you try reading a few more intellectual Libertarians. Try [Samizdata](http://samizdata.net/blog) Your ‘definition’ is interesting as many would characterise Libertarianism as maximum freedom and maximum personal responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/56 "2013-07-16T18:21:06Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Do we? If we do, you must not be very disagreeable. I hope I am not to disagreeable to you. > > Libertarians, in particular, whinge on about how bad ‘socialism’ is. And yet, they take advantage of it at every opportunity. ‘Hey, as long as it’s there, I’d be a fool not to take advantage of it!’ Roads need to be paid for, but many believe that _they_ shouldn’t have to pay for them. Same with other government services. If they don’t use it, it’s socialism and the first step down the road to becoming North Korea. A lot of farmers think that paying taxes that pay for one thing is bad; but don’t dare cut their subsidies! Some people rail against environmental regulations. If there were no regulations, then what’s to stop someone from using property adjacent to theirs as a dumping ground for toxic waste? And so on, and so on, and so on… We’ve differed but its always been pretty polite. Libertarians, what I think of more as the Old School heart of the movement, comes down to “do not tell me what to do on my own property and with my own property unless it unavoidably harms you. And for stuff off my property or things that could harm you, make damn sure its equal - fully equal”. That’s why I will debate that if we are going to control “second hand smoking” we need to equally battle “second hand driving”. (Remember me now? \) Taxes? No issue as long as you and one of the Kennedy’s are paying the same percentage/fashion. Cut taxes? 10% across the board. Regulations on property? Tougher. Lets take the toxic waste thing. If – and note the if – my toxic waste stays on my land and out of the groundwater, that’s a good thing. If it doesn’t, I need to be made to pay the consequences. No outs, no exceptions and don’t even bother with bankruptcy – any dime we can find, you lose. We’re willing to bust unions and corporations equally if we have to; sort of like FDR. But always with/for a reason; not just because we can. You’ve always had a certain element of “Cause Libertarians” - pro-nuke, anti-nuke, anti-tax, pro-drug - but not so many who have adopted it as a general lifestyle across the board. New School libertarians? Maybe more “Teabagger”? Or basic nihilists who haven’t quite picked out their favorite form of collapse yet? Not so sure there. But considering “our” record of being able to elect or influence anyone, I wouldn’t lose a lot of sleep over it. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/57 "2013-07-16T18:25:53Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > Well, I’ll address two “points” you’ve made: > > 1. The right to travel is a human right. I don’t believe in toll roads, and I don’t believe in traffic laws, as long as you don’t hurt somebody or damage their property. Sorry, I got 3 posts in and hit a doozy. The “right to travel”?!? WTF does that mean? Who has this right, how is it limited? I can travel into your house, using your car? Where did this “right” come from? Who or what espoused it specifically as a right to travel? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/58 "2013-07-16T18:28:25Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > Here’s a crazy idea: the government may have to cut wasteful spending and actually budget. I forget what Doper first posted this but it bears repeating here: Saying you’re going to solve the budget crisis by eliminating waste is like saying you’re going to solve the energy crisis by eliminating friction. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/59 "2013-07-16T18:28:29Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Your ‘definition’ is interesting as many would characterise Libertarianism as maximum freedom and maximum personal responsibility. No time to read your link right now. (I’m actually working.) But you’re right. ‘Maximum freedom and maximum personal responsibility’ is what Libertarians claim. In theory. In practice, they – like all of us – rely on government services, some of which have been enumerated in this thread. If we assume that ‘maximum freedom’ includes the ability to travel efficiently, then we must concede that roads are necessary. If roads are necessary, then they must be built and maintained. Since we cannot have armies of slave labour to do this, we must pay people to do it. Since we cannot simply take the materials needed, we must pay to procure them. If we must pay for material and workers, then we must get the money to do it. The fairest, most efficient way of procuring the necessary funding is through taxes. But we have people saying: > [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > And how are income taxes NOT theft? So ISTM that many Libertarians want to [del]steal[/del] take advantage of services, but they don’t want to have the responsibility of paying for them. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/60 "2013-07-16T18:44:02Z")
> **[Free-market roads](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-market_roads)** > > Free-market roads is the idea that it is possible and desirable for a society to have entirely private roads. > Free-market roads and infrastructure are generally advocated by anarcho-capitalist works, including Murray Rothbard's For a New Liberty, Morris and Linda Tannehill's The Market for Liberty, David D. Friedman's The Machinery of Freedom, and David T. Beito's The Voluntary City. > The free rider problem has been cited by proponents such as Murray Rothbard as a reason for privatizing roads: s... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673.md?page=4)