# Libertarianism: All the Freedom, and none of the Responsibility! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 16, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673 "2013-07-16T15:22:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![rEVOLutionary](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revolutionary/32/7311_2.png) [@rEVOLutionary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rEVOLutionary)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/81 "2013-07-16T23:18:03Z")
For #3, I should probably be more specific: In 2012, the U.S Government spent over $20 million training prostitutes in China to drink more responsibly on the job. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/82 "2013-07-16T23:29:46Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > For #3, I should probably be more specific: > > In 2012, the U.S Government spent over $20 million training prostitutes in China to drink more responsibly on the job. [Not exactly](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/jul/29/judson-phillips/founder-tea-party-nation-claims-us-government-has-/). ---
**Author:** ![rEVOLutionary](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revolutionary/32/7311_2.png) [@rEVOLutionary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rEVOLutionary)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/83 "2013-07-16T23:35:01Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > [Not exactly](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/jul/29/judson-phillips/founder-tea-party-nation-claims-us-government-has-/). Alright, I was unaware of that, you’re right. But that doesn’t invalidate my point. The government funds some ridiculous research projects. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/84 "2013-07-16T23:41:43Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > 1. Welfare for illegal immigrants. What do you mean by ‘welfare’? What percentage of illegal immigrants get it? Of course you are aware that illegal immigrants pay much more into the system than they take out. > [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > 1. Our unneeded military presence in nearly every country in the world. I agree – to a point. We need the military in various places to further the interests of the country. > [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > 1. Foreign aid. Better pay ‘contractors’ than do the work ourselves. > [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > 1. Subsidies. Yeah, just try to take corporate welfare from oil companies and farmers. See how that works out. > [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > 1. The ridiculous amount of people in the federal workforce. How many of them are not needed? > [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > 1. Congressional pay and perks. You’ll have to take that up with Congress. > [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > 1. Expensive travel for government officials. Operational security often precludes sending someone by Coach. > [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > 1. Unneeded departments in the government (Education, Energy, Commerce, Interior, etc.). All of those are necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/85 "2013-07-16T23:43:22Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > See, the great thing about a free market is that it reflects what the people want. If a company provides bad services, people won’t do business with them. If they do, people will. No monopolies So… government is responsible for monopolies? And without it, there won’t be any? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/86 "2013-07-17T00:16:47Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > See, the great thing about a free market is that it reflects what the people want. No, it reflects what individuals want. Which has nothing to do, many times, with what a population needs, and is often contrary to those needs. That’s the problem with most “libertarian” doctrines: they mistake the whim of the individual for the will of the population. Reaching nominal adulthood and still thinking your whim rules is the hallmark of the intellectually juvenile. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/87 "2013-07-17T00:32:25Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > No, it reflects what individuals want. Which has nothing to do, many times, with what a population needs, and is often contrary to those needs. > > That’s the problem with most “libertarian” doctrines: they mistake the whim of the individual for the will of the population. Reaching nominal adulthood and still thinking your whim rules is the hallmark of the intellectually juvenile. ‘Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it.’ – William Penn ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/88 "2013-07-17T02:11:02Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > Alright, I was unaware of that, you’re right. But that doesn’t invalidate my point. If getting the facts that supported your point wrong doesn’t invalidate your point, then there’s something wrong with the way you arrive at points. ---
**Author:** ![rEVOLutionary](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revolutionary/32/7311_2.png) [@rEVOLutionary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rEVOLutionary)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/89 "2013-07-17T11:27:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If getting the facts that supported your point wrong doesn’t invalidate your point, then there’s something wrong with the way you arrive at points. I used one bad example, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t plenty of others… ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/90 "2013-07-17T11:56:13Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > I used one bad example, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t plenty of others… Agreed. You’ve used many bad examples so far. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/91 "2013-07-17T12:07:51Z")
My top two picks for the generic Libertarian motto: “I don’t wanna and you can’t make me” or “I didn’t write that newsletter” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/92 "2013-07-17T12:30:39Z")
[QUOTE= rEVOLutionary] I am against socialism, I am pro-capitalism, and, depending on if I want to be realistic or idealistic, an anarchist. [/QUOTE] _No-one_ who is pro-capitalism is an anarchist. This is not a True Scotsman argument, this is a push-back against redwashing by the Libertarian fifth column in the guise of “anarcho-capitalists.” stop trying to co-opt our movement. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/93 "2013-07-17T13:13:47Z")
Many years ago, I had a friend who was a solid libertarian. He never claimed there was freedom of movement. As a matter of fact, he professed to believe that all roads and all streets should have tolls. If my property went to middle of the street (it doesn’t, but that sort of thing does happen), then I could pave it and charge a toll. Or not, my choice. I could instead put up a fence. As far as he was concerned, collective government had only two functions: police and armed forces. I never asked him about fire protection, water, sewage, but he presumably thought they ought to be private. As far as he was concerned the only rights any of us had were the physical safety and property rights. Why property rights were raised above, say, right to health care, was not clear, but I gather he was just parroting Ayn Rand (whom I have never read). He got a PhD in mathematics, then went to law school (at which point I lost track) but I googled him a couple years ago to discover: he became a DA in LA; and he is still active in Libertarian circles. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/94 "2013-07-17T17:28:42Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > If people desired it, yes. See, the great thing about a free market is that it reflects what the people want. If a company provides bad services, people won’t do business with them. If they do, people will. No monopolies, no subsidies, just open competition that encourages lower prices and higher quality. > > I said _almost_ everything. You do know that back in the 1800s, when the market was a lot less regulated that it is now, monopolies were pretty much standard? (Only they got around that by calling them “trusts”) They’re so cute when they’re young and naive. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/95 "2013-07-17T19:43:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _No-one_ who is pro-capitalism is an anarchist. Wasn’t Ayn Rand? Based on the ending of _Atlas Shrugged,_ anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Running\_with\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Running\_with\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Running_with_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/96 "2013-07-17T19:53:58Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > Well, in a theoretically laissez-faire market, competition would promote lower prices, which would make healthcare MORE accessible to the poor. If you don’t have any money or insurance? Well, just like now, you hope that you can find a doctor that can help you out of the goodness in his heart. Or, in other words, the poor are free to die. > [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > The competition of free-markets promote improved product quality and lower prices. It goes for almost everything. The same could be said for many things. For example, I think the Department of Education should be abolished, and education should be left to individuals and the free market. Privatize it all. Privatize (almost) everything. Translation: anyone who can’t afford it doesn’t deserve an education. Way to keep the poor in their place… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/97 "2013-07-17T21:11:06Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > Well, in a theoretically laissez-faire market, competition would promote lower prices, which would make healthcare MORE accessible to the poor. Or health care providers will get together in a monopoly and _raise_ prices, since in a laissez-faire market there’s nothing stopping them. > [@MrDibble](#): > > _No-one_ who is pro-capitalism is an anarchist. Well, yes and no. There’s quite a few who _think_ they are; they don’t seem able to realize that capitalism needs a government to keep the system running. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > You do know that back in the 1800s, when the market was a lot less regulated that it is now, monopolies were pretty much standard? (Only they got around that by calling them “trusts”) > > They’re so cute when they’re young and naive. The standard libertarian argument is that all monopolies are enforced by the government. _Therefore,_ the way to break up those monopolies is to cut back on government (since government cannot _possibly_ be a solution to the problem). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/98 "2013-07-17T21:49:55Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > 1. Welfare for illegal immigrants. “Welfare” for illegal immigrants, to the extent that it isn’t an idea entirely made up from whole cloth, actually is a net _benefit_ fiscally. > [@](#): > > 1. Funding for retarded studies, like a study in China on why dogs lift their legs to pee. 1. Funding for scientific inquiry, including basic science, is also a net benefit to society. To the extent we want to do _any_ such funding, there will be a few instances of apparently “retarded” projects, but their costs is negligible. 2. Why do you think you have the expertise to understand what studies are “retarded” and what aren’t? Are you an expert in canine physiology? > [@](#): > > 1. Foreign aid. At the level we actually provide foreign aid, this basically has no impact on our budget, which means that our foreign aid expenses are really _too low_, not too high. > [@](#): > > 1. Subsidies. Used as a catch-all term, it has no meaning at all. > [@](#): > > 1. The ridiculous amount of people in the federal workforce. What makes you think the number of federal workers is “ridiculous”? Do you have any actual analysis to back that conclusion up? > [@](#): > > 1. Congressional pay and perks. > 2. Expensive travel for government officials. More items that will have zero effect on the overall budget. > [@](#): > > 1. Unneeded departments in the government (Education, Energy, Commerce, Interior, etc.). Another generalized statement that has zero meaning. > [@](#): > > Just to name a few. So, pretty much nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/99 "2013-07-18T03:15:54Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Desk Sergeant: Before you go any further, pal, I gotta tell ya it’s cash up front. A thousand bucks a day for a full investigation, another thou’ if the assailant is caught. Do you understand? Civilian: Yes, yes. I understand completely. In fact, here’s ten-thousand for the investigation, your thousand for catching him, twenty-grand for the DA’s indictment, and three grand for each juror to convict – or just give it all to the judge if it doesn’t go to a jury. Oh, and here’s the name of the guy who killed my wife. Do YOU understand? Desk Sergeant: Yes indeed, Mister Luster – and may I say my wife loves your great-grandfather’s line of cosmetics. She wears the nail polish all the time. _taps fingers and stares_ Civilian: Oh! I almost forgot. Here’s a small tip for helping me file this crime report. Desk Sergeant: Another grand! I’ll have the boys get on it tonight, sir! * * * > [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > Well, in a theoretically laissez-faire market, competition would promote lower prices. . . > The competition of free-markets promote improved product quality and lower prices. . . You’re very right, and that seems to be a very common (key?) argument of many libertarians. What you (and they) don’t seem to understand is that, while Smith, Locke, and Hobbes contributed elements of a great theory that was adopted by early Ex-Pats from Europe (most notably England) it saw its practical implementation crumbling by the time the Colonies in America started banding together and it became subverted and perverted and undermined so much by the start of the 20th century that the youngest President of the United States felt the need to break up America’s giant monopolies in order Promote the General Welfare (and, believe it or not, he was a Republican). Seriously, though, the theory of free-market capitalism assumes full access to full information, unmitigated competition among vendors, and full mobility among consumers. That’s fine when you and I are selling lemonade from our backyard lemon trees at either end of the block, but it doesn’t take into account mass-media disinformation in the wake of Citizens United or collusion between vendors or commodity cartels or sound-bite slinging spin-doctors or international megacorporations or ex-politician lobbyists – or dozens of other factors in the [modern world](http://www.thenation.com/blog/174960/chronicles-invisible-hand-free-market-man#axzz2ZMYcq9L0) that didn’t exist when the Theory of Capitalism was dreamed up. For that matter, purely theoretical anarchy and communism work great as well – but real-world implementations are no better than real-world Libertarianism. The problem is that those pesky humans get involved and screw things up. You’re also right that there are a lot of stupid research projects that get funded. But it’s the job of the scientists to review each others’ proposals and decide which projects deserve funding. After all, it sounds pretty stupid to spend years trying to make rubbing alcohol into a gelatinous form when the liquid version is perfectly fine in the 50-cent bottles. But today hand-sanitizers make millions for the businesses that grabbed that invention. –G! One of the great scientists (I thought it was Einstein, but can’t find it in a collection of his quotes) once said, “We do the research for the sake of research. It’s up to engineers and businessmen to figure out what to do with our discoveries.” ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673/100 "2013-07-18T04:25:26Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > > [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > > > 1. Unneeded departments in the government (Education, Energy, Commerce, Interior, etc.). > > Another generalized statement that has zero meaning. To be fair (?), unlike conservatives, libertarians are quite serious when they say they want to just shut huge swaths of government down. So I take **rEVOLutionary** at his word, and imagine that he has quite the long and specific list of government agencies that he’d happily use a magic wand to just wave out of existence, dumping all of its duties and responsibilities onto private entities and the free market. Hell, I just assume he’d destroy 90-95% of them and just be done with it. So I think his statement has plenty of meaning. Whether it’s a good idea is, of course, another thing entirely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-all-the-freedom-and-none-of-the-responsibility/663673.md?page=6)