# Libertarianism and Moralism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 25, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010 "2012-02-25T23:32:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/61 "2012-02-27T20:03:30Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Nope. My, that’s eloquent. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/62 "2012-02-27T20:04:38Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What you are missing is that a “bad thing” is in the eye of the beholder. By trying to stop people from forcing others to do things, I’m trying to stop bad things from happening. So, I’m not like the guy who walks by and sees bad things and does nothing, I’m trying to stop the bad things (ie, the use of force to get others to do what you want them to do). So you’re saying the only possible bad thing in the world is forcing somebody to do something they don’t want to do? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/63 "2012-02-27T20:07:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; they have the principle that it’s wrong for the government to force moral values on people. Not really. An injunction on murder is a moral value forced on other people. > [@](#): > > They’ve no problems with non-government organizations or individuals forcing people to do what they want, Uh, that’s the exact opposite of what Libertarianism is. > [@](#): > > and they do consider it a legitimate government function to crack down on any of the common people who raise their hands against their “betters”. The function of the police in a libertarian society is to keep the lower classes properly submissive to their masters. > > They make speeches about “not initiating force”, true - but that’s that’s because they’ve removed all recourse for the common people but force. Not a single word of that is correct. The only thing that post has going for it is that you didn’t mention Somalia. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/64 "2012-02-27T20:10:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Semantics. “Non-coercion” is a statement about morality. You’re getting hung on the [descriptive vs normative](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality#Descriptive_and_normative) definition of the term “morality”. > > I don’t know about Republicans, but when Democrats say they don’t legislate morality (and they most certainly do say this), they are talking about descriptive morality. Your personal moral code. But both Democrats and Libertarians legislate normative morality. It’s just that Libertarians have a smaller set of what constitutes their normative morality than Democrats do. > > A Democrat will say that racial discrimination in the workplace is objectively wrong. He will also say that murder, theft, fraud and rape are objectively wrong. > > A Libertarian will agree with the 2nd sentence but not the first. I don’t want to argue about objective and subjective morality unless you can show that there actually is such a thing as objective morality. To use your examples, what standard would a libertarian use to establish that that murder, theft, fraud, and rape are _objectively_ immoral but racial discrimination is (presumably) only _subjectively_ immoral? How did the libertarian know what morality was objective and what was subjective? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/65 "2012-02-27T20:13:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So you’re saying the only possible bad thing in the world is forcing somebody to do something they don’t want to do? Libertarianism/Randism is basically the ideological equivalent of psychopathy, so “we want to do whatever we want without regard for the consequences” is a central feature of the ideology, right along with “we don’t owe anybody anything”. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Uh, that’s the exact opposite of what Libertarianism is. Nonsense; they object to the government doing anything to stop the powerful from forcing everyone else to do as they demand. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not a single word of that is correct. No, it’s all correct. Libertarianism is about handing unlimited power to the wealthy and reducing the government to a tool to keep the common people from rebelling. It’s anarchy for the rich; “anarchists who want police protection from their slaves”. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > The only thing that post has going for it is that you didn’t mention Somalia. So? I’ve heard libertarians praise Somalia as being superior to the US due to its lack of government. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/66 "2012-02-27T20:16:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t want to argue about objective and subjective morality unless you can show that there actually is such a thing as objective morality. Call it “normative” then. I should not have switched terms in the same post. But you need to realize that there are two uses of the term, and you are conflating them. > [@](#): > > To use your examples, what standard would a libertarian use to establish that that murder, theft, fraud, and rape are _objectively_ immoral but racial discrimination is (presumably) only _subjectively_ immoral? How did the libertarian know what morality was objective and what was subjective? The same way other philosophies do. Libertarians think that the only normative morals to be enforced by the state are coercive acts by one person on another. This derives from the postulate that freedom is an end in itself, and needs no justification of qualification. Ultimately, all political philosophies deal with normative morality. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/67 "2012-02-27T20:17:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense; they object to the government doing anything to stop the powerful from forcing everyone else to do as they demand. Nope. > [@](#): > > No, it’s all correct. Libertarianism is about handing unlimited power to the wealthy and reducing the government to a tool to keep the common people from rebelling. It’s anarchy for the rich; “anarchists who want police protection from their slaves”. Nope > [@](#): > > So? I’ve heard libertarians praise Somalia as being superior to the US due to its lack of government. Cite that this is anything even remotely mainstream in the Libertarian Party? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/68 "2012-02-27T20:25:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Nope. > Nope More eloquence from the defenders of [del]sociopathy[/del]libertarianism > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Cite that this is anything even remotely mainstream in the Libertarian Party? I have no idea if it is or not; you were the one who brought up Somalia anyway. And it’s funny that _you_ don’t even try to make an argument against me, just saying “nope” and then start demanding cites from me. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/69 "2012-02-27T20:26:47Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And for people who don’t consider abortion murder, abortion isn’t initiating force. So the moral decision being forced on other people is the belief that abortion is murder. Not everyone shares that moral belief. That belief is not “moral”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/70 "2012-02-27T20:29:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > More eloquence from the defenders of [del]sociopathy[/del]libertarianism > > I have no idea if it is or not; you were the one who brought up Somalia anyway. And it’s funny that _you_ don’t even try to make an argument against me, just saying “nope” and then start demanding cites from me. No sense in arguing against garbage posts. You need to bring some cites in to support your so-called arguments. As it is, they are just uninformed opinions. Those can be dismissed out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/71 "2012-02-27T20:41:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No sense in arguing against garbage posts. Ah, the old “you aren’t worthy” dodge". The Right on this board seems to like it for some reason. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > You need to bring some cites in to support your so-called arguments. As it is, they are just uninformed opinions. Those can be dismissed out of hand. Of course I could say the same about your posts on the subject. Where are _your_ cites? What in fact would even qualify as a “cite” about a never actually officially implemented political philosophy? Am I supposed to just take all their claims at face value like you appear to be doing? I’ve never seen anyone produce a cite on the bad effects of attempts to impose libertarianism without the defenders of libertarianism instantly dismissing it as not real libertarianism. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/72 "2012-02-27T20:54:44Z")
Der tribe, a simple Nope is all that is necessary to respond to your posts. You never make an argument, you just make assertions based on your views of other people’s motives. A counter-asserfion is all that is needed to negate a bare assertion. Staff actually making arguments for your positions and you’ll get more than a nopekn return. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/73 "2012-02-27T21:03:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So you’re saying the only possible bad thing in the world is forcing somebody to do something they don’t want to do? No. I’m just saying it is one bad thing that I am stopping. You are actively encouraging it, which is arguably worse than simply doing nothing to stop it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/74 "2012-02-27T21:04:29Z")
[quote=“Der\_Trihs, post:71, topic:614010”] Ah, the old “you aren’t worthy” dodge". The Right on this board seems to like it for some reason.[/qoute] Nope. Never said anything about you, personally. And you can save your comments about “The Right” for those who are on “The Right”. > [@](#): > > Of course I could say the same about your posts on the subject. Where are _your_ cites? What in fact would even qualify as a “cite” about a never actually officially implemented political philosophy? Am I supposed to just take all their claims at face value like you appear to be doing? No, but you are simply making stuff up about what Libertarians believe. Let’s look at your first statement in that post: > [@](#): > > .. they object to the government doing anything to stop the powerful from forcing everyone else to do as they demand. That is simply not true, and no reading of the [Libertarian Platform](http://www.lp.org/platform) can reasonably come to that conclusion. If you think it can, then quote the part that supports your claim. > [@](#): > > I’ve never seen anyone produce a cite on the bad effects of attempts to impose libertarianism without the defenders of libertarianism instantly dismissing it as not real libertarianism. Well, it depends on your definition of “bad”. I’m not a member of the Libertarian Party, but I sympathize with many of their goals and I’ve admitted in this very thread that some people will be discriminated against in the workplace in Libertaria. They will be discriminated against because of their sex, their race and/or their sexual orientation. Lots of “bad” things will happen in Libertaria. Just as lots of “bad” things happen in every country. I don’t know of any political philosophy which claims it will prevent all “bad” things from happening. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bith_Shuffle)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/75 "2012-02-27T21:59:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think people misconceive what Libertarianism is. Most people not of the socially conservative stripe talk about not legislating morality. Just look at the OP. Who still, btw, has not defined what “moralism” is. Libertarians are no more likely to “pat themselves on the back” about this than are social liberals. I think that they, like social liberals, will commonly use “morality” in a narrower, colloquial sense. We hear it from social liberals all the time: Don’t legislate morality. Okay, you’re right that social liberals do that too. And social liberals are confused when they talk like that as well. Moral beliefs are moral beliefs. If there’s a problem with banning contraceptives, it certainly isn’t that it’s “legislating morality.” Laws against murder also “legislate morality.” So do laws against rape. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/76 "2012-02-27T22:16:24Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Der tribe, a simple Nope is all that is necessary to respond to your posts. Only if you want to implicitly admit the baselessness of your positions. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > Am I supposed to just take all their claims at face value like you appear to be doing? > > That is simply not true, and no reading of the [Libertarian Platform](http://www.lp.org/platform) can reasonably come to that conclusion. In other words yes, we are supposed to just take their claims at face value. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/77 "2012-02-27T22:49:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Only if you want to implicitly admit the baselessness of your positions. No, only if I want to explicitly show the baselessness of your assertions. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/78 "2012-02-27T23:39:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In other words yes, we are supposed to just take their claims at face value. I noticed you conveniently left off the sentence where I invited you to quote from the LP’s platform to support your claims. I guess we can assume you are unable to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/79 "2012-02-27T23:39:26Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Nonsense. You are assuming that every corporation would believe every other corporation regarding the merits of a person placed on a blacklist. But it wouldn’t work that way. Some corporations would put good employees on the blacklist so that they wouldn’t be hired by competitors, and the fact that the competitors would realize this renders a blacklist useless on the first place. You are too caught up in trying to portray corporations and lkbertarians as evil to see this simple flaw in tour scenario. Please explain the absence of large numbers of female doctors and lawyers in the more libertarian '50s and '60s, before sex discrimination laws. Did women all of a sudden get the ability to do medicine and law? Government then certainly did not prevent women from taking these jobs, but let employers basically blacklist women. Clearly lots of the women they banned would have made good employees. How come the market didn’t work there? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010/80 "2012-02-27T23:43:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Certain types of racial discrimination are illegal in the US and certain types would be illegal in Libertaria. We’re just talking about where to draw the line. In the US, I can open a private club and refuse to allow anyone of the Nemoid race to join. What I can’t do is open a public facility and do so. In both the US and Libertaria, the government is not allowed to discriminate. There are private clubs and private clubs. There are real private clubs, limited to a small number of people. Then there is the private club I joined in Salt Lake City (dues, $1) in order to drink at a martini bar. Or the private club I used to be registered at automatically at my hotel in Oklahoma City so I could drink at their bar (which I never did.) Those clubs increased freedom. Would you support a similar private club, in a restaurant say off a main street, whose purpose was to exclude somebody being legal in Libertaria? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-and-moralism/614010.md?page=5)