# Libertarianism vs liberalism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-vs-liberalism/732691 "2015-09-27T13:58:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-vs-liberalism/732691/61 "2015-10-01T02:15:26Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Geez, guy, I hate Libertarian philosophy like poison, but you’re oversimplifying it beyond even where I would go. > > Most Libertarians are “limited state” libertarians, who believe in a government strong enough to enforce the very few laws they see as necessary. Laws against trespass would have to be enforced by this minimum state. > > The flaw with Libertarian ideas is that they can’t be used to create a society. They can only be used to perpetuate a society as it exists now. Their ideas can protect property, but cannot build a civilization. They can’t protect opportunity, let alone encourage its growth. Libertarian philosophy is totally based on protection of extant property and power. It would lead to the centralized control of wealth, as in the Robber Baron era of American/World economic history. In my experience there’s a wide range of libertarians. There are some who are what I would call “nonreligious Republicans,” who are socially liberal, but hate taxes. And then there are - if I remember the name right - anarchist libertarians, who believe that there should be no government at all. I’ve had some very nonproductive conversations with some of them, because, well, they come off as zealots. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-vs-liberalism/732691/62 "2015-10-01T02:28:07Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Liberals are statists who want to use the power of the state to fight against oligarchs and corporations, remake the social structure into a more egalitarian form and protect various vulnerable groups (as well as the environment). They also support using the state for wealth redistribution. Libertarians are generally opposed to all those things. > > Libertarians and liberals both tend to be socially liberal. > > Saying libertarians love freedom isn’t totally true. Libertarians hate government. Under a libertarian system, an oligarchy is going to develop which will dramatically limit the freedom of the people who live there. A system where a tiny minority of rich people control the government, media, economy, etc. is not really free for many people. My take on it is that a system that transmits wealth created by people who work to people who own is a system that is itself created by government. For lack of a better term, what I’ll call the “billionaire class” has been tremendously successful in convincing people that such a system is “natural,” but it’s not. It’s just a system that favors one group (owners) over another group (everyone else). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-vs-liberalism/732691/63 "2015-10-01T02:28:28Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > In my experience there’s a wide range of libertarians. There are some who are what I would call “nonreligious Republicans,” who are socially liberal, but hate taxes. > > And then there are - if I remember the name right - anarchist libertarians, who believe that there should be no government at all. I’ve had some very nonproductive conversations with some of them, because, well, they come off as zealots. While there is some overlap, anarchism is a separate and very different tradition, and closely associated with Marxism. Broadly speaking, (modern) libertarians oppose the state because they see it as a threat to private property, while anarchists oppose the state because they see it as a defender of private property. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-vs-liberalism/732691/64 "2015-10-01T10:02:02Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Libertarians tend to see an economic system in which wealth flows from the poor to the rich as natural Can you provide a cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-vs-liberalism/732691/65 "2015-10-01T10:47:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > There’s enough materials, enough technology, but neither is any use without labor, and who’s gonna work for nothing? The assumption that people won’t work until and unless you virtually coerce them into doing so (by creating necessity via the market economy) is ill founded, in my opinion. Lots of us would work “for nothing” if we didn’t need money to buy what we need. Including doing our share of the scutwork that isn’t known for being a lot of fun. We’d do it to feel like we were making our fair contribution. Not enough of us? Keep in mind, when doing your comparison with the status quo, that bankers, soldiers, police officers, senators, investment capitalists, prison wardens, social security case workers, cashiers, tax preparation clerks, payroll administrators, appeals court justices, and a whole slew of people in other professions that are ancillary to the money system, criminal justice system, or the general management of authority of the conventional hierarchies cannot be said to be “working”, nor can the not-currently-employed amongst us — insofar as we don’t need anyone to do those things in a system not based on their principles. (Admitteldy there would be a whole raft of communication-related tasks that don’t currently exist). ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-vs-liberalism/732691/66 "2015-10-01T18:02:47Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Libertarians believe in the use of force in self defense. > > Libertarians believe private courts will be better than govt monopoly courts. I know. But if both think they’re self/property defending? And private courts… I guess you only get use them if you have the money? What happens if I want to use the Linus Court, and you want to use the Will Court? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarianism-vs-liberalism/732691.md?page=3)