# Libertarians to infiltrate Idaho. Discuss. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010 "2003-04-25T01:58:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/1 "2003-04-25T01:58:03Z")
Well, sort of, anyway. And it might not be Idaho; the Libertarians might be coming to a state near you! According to the [Casper Star Tribune](http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2003/04/24/news/wyoming/6bb72f83b497e5b01adc4655e359b7ff.txt): > [@](#): > > A movement called the Free State Project has registered some 3,100 people who would help choose a “candidate” state and move there in hopes of canceling laws against drugs, prostitution, guns and other individual liberties, while privatizing current state functions such as schools. > > “Rather than change the whole nation it makes sense for all of us to gather in one place,” said Elizabeth McKinstry, 33, of Hillsdale, Mich., the project’s vice president. > > […] > > When the number of registered Free State supporters reaches 5,000, likely by the end of the year, they will vote on which state to target. Then supporters will have five years to move, with a goal of 20,000 Free Staters living there. > > Sorens said he believes 20,000 committed activists in a state of less than 1.5 million is enough to sway the minds of residents. That is necessary, he said, because “we’re not going to be a large enough group to take over.” I actually think this is a pretty interesting experiment. Do you think they’ll be successful? What are the odds of it working? Could Libertarian policies be successfully implemented? If those policies are implemented and fail can non-libertarians all say “we told you so?” If they are implemented and they work, can libertarians say “neener, neener, neener?” Is there anything improper about a bunch of activists moving in on a state in the proposed fashion? And as an aside, this is the great thing about the federal system: state governments can act as individual laboratories to try whatever wild-assed things they want. The things that work eventually get picked up elsewhere; the things that fail limit their damage to one geographic area. ---
**Author:** ![JustJoan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@JustJoan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustJoan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/2 "2003-04-25T02:19:02Z")
Why not? There are Indian tribes that size that don’t mess up everybody else’s world. Of course, some Idahoans would probably suggest they buy up the old Jim Jones cult property in Guyana. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/3 "2003-04-25T02:31:40Z")
Their official website is here. > **[The Free State Project | Liberty Lives in New Hampshire](https://www.fsp.org/)** > > The Free State Project is a movement of thousands of freedom-loving people in New Hampshire. If you just want to Live Free, join us! I’m not sure what the idea is with the porcupine logo. I’m not going to hold my breath waiting for it to happen, though. 3,100 people willing to send their name and contact information to a college student based on a few articles at a website doesn’t necessarily translate to 3,100 people (much less 20,000 people) who are actually willing to make the move. When push comes to shove, few people would actually be willing to give up career, family, or education to pursue this. ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/4 "2003-04-25T02:44:20Z")
I would like to volunteer my state for the exodus of 3,000 libertarians. 😉 [sub]I actually admire libertarians’ civic spirit; I just wish I didn’t disagree with what they want to do with it so much…[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/5 "2003-04-25T03:54:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mandelstam \* > \*\*[sub]I actually admire libertarians’ civic spirit; I just wish I didn’t disagree with what they want to do with it so much…[/sub] \*\* Go smoke a joint with a hooker and shoot some machine guns, you’ll feel better about it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/6 "2003-04-25T04:13:58Z")
As a libertarian, I have a few remarks: > [@](#): > > Could Libertarian policies be successfully implemented? If those policies are implemented and fail can non-libertarians all say “we told you so?” If they are implemented and they work, can libertarians say “neener, neener, neener?” Libertarian principles are not about “success” only. That’s for the people who masquerade as “pragmatists”, which is code for “I have no principles but that of expedience.” Libertarian principles are about what is right to do, and what is right is for the government to back off from it’s excessive use of force and let the people have freedom from coercion. What determines “success”? Libertarians dont’ subscribe to utilitarianism, so success is not a measure of “is everybody better off now?” So I don’t understand how you could determine if it does or doesn’t “work”. > [@](#): > > Is there anything improper about a bunch of activists moving in on a state in the proposed fashion? Well, my state had a bit of a fight over that with Kansas, and the resulting hatred has lasted to this day. I dunno if it’s improper, but it could generate resentment. > [@](#): > > And as an aside, this is the great thing about the federal system: state governments can act as individual laboratories to try whatever wild-assed things they want. This is indeed a good thing about the federal system. But again, I don’t know how you are supposed to measure the success of the experiment. Libertarians believe our principles should be enacted because freedom from coercion is inherently right, we’re not waiting with baited breath to see if everyone’s happy with it. Some people, those who are unable to support themselves without using the gun barrel of government force to get what they want, will be quite unhappy with libertarian principles in practice. However, I suspect that a state that brought true freedom to it’s denizens would attract alot of business, and the resulting general prosperity would make the ideas attractive even to pragmatists. I’d be afriad that Idaho is too remote and there would be a lag time while commercial enterprises took advantage of what libertarian freedom has to offer. I think Rhode Island would be a better target, because it has ports. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/7 "2003-04-25T10:10:41Z")
Not to be confused with the other [Free State](http://www.fs.gov.za). ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/8 "2003-04-25T13:17:00Z")
> [@](#): > > **"Rather than change the whole nation it makes sense for all of us to gather in one place," said Elizabeth McKinstry, 33, of Hillsdale, Mich., the project’s vice president.** I think this is an excellent argument in favor of the idea. It will make it much easier for us to keep an eye on them. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/9 "2003-04-25T14:46:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > Libertarian principles are not about “success” only. That’s for the people who masquerade as “pragmatists”, which is code for “I have no principles but that of expedience.” Libertarian principles are about what is right to do, and what is right is for the government to back off from it’s excessive use of force and let the people have freedom from coercion. What determines “success”? Libertarians dont’ subscribe to utilitarianism, so success is not a measure of “is everybody better off now?” So I don’t understand how you could determine if it does or doesn’t “work”. Maybe not to you guys. But to others considering whether or to what extent a libertarian society makes sense to them, “working”, in some pragmatic sense, is what it’s all about. If an attempt at a libertarian society resulted in a state where 2% of the population had all the land and power, and the other 98% were essentially their slaves, it would ‘unsell’ libertarianism in the same way that Communism was ‘unsold’ by the Soviet experience. > [@](#): > > Libertarian principles are about what is right to do… success is not a measure of “is everybody better off now?” The problem is, the same thing could be said about a lot of -isms, political, religious, or whatever. When ideas become more important than people, it’s time to run for cover. ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/10 "2003-04-25T14:54:30Z")
In politics, purity is for those who do not have to make decisions. In the event that libertarians become a serious political force in Idaho, they will have to come up with a reform programme. They will have to decide on priorities. And they will have to articulate how to implement their programme in great detail. That takes patience, skill and above all compromise. They will split. ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/11 "2003-04-25T16:01:05Z")
I think this idea is pretty cool, but I’m skeptical (to say the least) that it’ll ever get off to a good start. As **ITR** said, there’s a big difference between signing a petition and moving, and getting 20,000 people to relocate is no small task. And it seems to me that even 20,000 people isn’t that many, really. The libertarians in question seem to believe that everybody (or at least a majority) would agree with them, if only they understood. In reality, I think only a small percentage of people in the US would subscribe to libertarian philosophy, regardless of how much they’re versed in its ideas. That being said, I would love for these guys to succeed. It would be extremely interesting to see such an experiment in progress, and I would love to see such a state prosper. Personally, I love the ideals of libertarianism, even if I think many of them are inherently unworkable (which is why I’m not a “big-L” Libertarian). I’d love to be proven wrong, though. Jeff ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/12 "2003-04-25T17:04:54Z")
Aren’t a number of the laws that they are talking about overturning federal laws, not local/state ones? Out here in sunny California (currently grey and rainy) for example we have Santa Cruz which voted about 77% to decriminalize marijuana for medical use, the whole state passed a similar law a few years ago, but the DEA still came in and applied federal anitdrug laws and busted a bunch of folks down in Santa Cruz for distributing pot to some sick folks. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ITR champion \* > \*\*Their official website is here. > [http://www.freestateproject.org/](http://www.freestateproject.org/) > I’m not sure what the idea is with the porcupine logo. > \*\* A porcupine is made up of thousands of pricks too. (JOKING! I DIDN’T SAY THAT! SOME GUY CAME UP AND TYPED IT REALLY QUICK AND THEN RAN OFF!) ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/13 "2003-04-25T17:47:57Z")
I just wonder what 5,000 to 20,000 moving to a small state would do to the economy, in the short run at least. You could argue that such an influx might provide a consumer boost that would help local business, but i wonder what all those libertarians are going to do for work. Especially given that some of small states that they are considering also tend to be the ones that suffer from some of the country’s highest levels of unemployment. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/14 "2003-04-25T18:09:08Z")
If all the Libertarians in the US were to move to Idaho, do you suppose Canada might be willing to take the whole place off our hands? Just an idea. ---
**Author:** ![Tsiyeria](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Tsiyeria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tsiyeria)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/15 "2003-04-25T18:25:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hawthorne \* > \*\*In politics, purity is for those who do not have to make decisions. > > In the event that libertarians become a serious political force in Idaho, they will have to come up with a reform programme. They will have to decide on priorities. And they will have to articulate how to implement their programme in great detail. That takes patience, skill and above all compromise. > > They will split. \*\* As a Libertarian, I believe that you are incorrect. In Alabama, the Libertarians have been a political force for years, patiently facing down opposition from the Republicans _and_ the Democrats, who all believe that we are formidable enough to be dangerous. We have been planning for many years, coming up with all sorts of protests (Case in point; the Montgomery Tea Party to protest an occupational tax whose legality is currently being decided in Supreme Court. Again, contested by Libertarians.), and puuting up candidates for most races. In Alabama at least, Libertarians are a die-hard breed that find it hard to give up. If Idaho needs any of us, I’m sure _someone_ will be willing to plan everything. Maybe more someones than the major parties would feel comfortable with. ---
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/16 "2003-04-25T19:00:06Z")
Where do you get the idea that this has anything whatsoever to do with libertarianism? The free state project is about doing whatever they can. If that’s only a small difference for the better, that’s still making a difference. Last I heard we did still have freedom of movement in this country. These things to change quickly these days though… The porcupine logo is explained thus: “the first suggestions centered around the Gadsden flag and the “Don’t Tread on Me” snake. Then we thought we wanted something a little more original and PR-friendly, to emphasize the freshness of our approach, while still indicating the same idea. Porcupines are certainly cute and non-aggressive, but you don’t want to step on them!” As for the effects of a group moving to one state, some of the states they’re considering are already not only growing but encouraging growth. There’s lots and lots of good jobs available here in NH for instance. As far as 20,000 (If they get that many which I admit is doubtful since they don’t seem to have much PR) not being enough, realize that this is almost 2 percent of the population of the state. Effectively they would be even more, since what counts is not their size relative to the whole population, but to those who vote and are politically active. Plus, in most of the states they are considering, many of the locals who vote and are active are already on their side on manby issues. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/17 "2003-04-25T20:15:01Z")
I think it’s a good idea. I want to see what true libertarianism in action looks like. If Idaho is made into a laboratory to test whether it works, more power to them. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/18 "2003-04-25T20:28:30Z")
I agree with **ElJeffe** (there’s a first time for everything) that while the principles of Libertarianism are quite appealing in the abstract, I think a lot of it would be largely unworkable in the real world. That said, I’d _love_ to see the results of such an experiment. Libertarianism is a valuable enough philosophy, at least on paper, that it would be eminently worthwhile to see which aspects can be adapted and adopted in a larger forum. It seems to me like some of their better ideas have been pushed aside along with the loonier ones, baby-and-bathwater style, and it would be fascinating to see them get an honest laboratory-style workout, particularly the narrowing or abandonment of morality laws (prohibitions on drugs, prostitution, etc.). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalashnikov \* > **The porcupine logo is explained thus: "the first suggestions centered around the Gadsden flag and the “Don’t Tread on Me” snake. Then we thought we wanted something a little more original and PR-friendly, to emphasize the freshness of our approach, while still indicating the same idea. Porcupines are certainly cute and non-aggressive, but you don’t want to step on them!"** You don’t want to adopt them as the logo of your fabric softener, either. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/19 "2003-04-25T20:38:52Z")
I want to see what happens when the first candidates out of this merry band of immigrants are asked how they feel about farm subsidies. Nothing like a little political reality running headlong into ideology. ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010/20 "2003-04-25T21:21:18Z")
For a blast from the past, see this thread, [The Free State Project](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130377), from August of last year. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarians-to-infiltrate-idaho-discuss/171010.md?page=2)