# "Liberty Monumen t" in new Orleans taken down **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 24, 2017, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135 "2017-04-24T11:46:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/21 "2017-04-24T19:01:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not in favor of removing monuments like these. Like you, I believe them to be of historical significance and their removal betrays a desire to conceal history and rewrite it. Yes, thank heavens cooler heads prevailed during the Revolutionary period and the equestrian statue of King George is still there on Bowling Green in Manhattan for the Ivy League students of King’s College to admire. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/22 "2017-04-24T20:08:45Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Read Loewen’s _Lies My Teacher Told Me_ and the more encyclopedic _Lies Across America_, which visits something like 300 historical sites and markers and lays bare the issues surrounding each. (Every monument mentioned in this thread is covered.) > > As a historian, he makes a careful case for why each monument should be preserved… but moved or re-contexted with additions explaining its genesis and history. > > (I am particularly fond of his division of history into the _sasha_ and the _zamani_… left as an exercise for the reader. The 1800’s just passed into the _zamani_, BTW.) I specifically mentioned Loewen’s second book in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/23 "2017-04-24T20:55:34Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > How would you feel about today’s heroes being placed on temporary pedestals, awaiting the judgment of future citizens who may deem them unworthy? As others have said, that’s 100% fine. If they’re really better people than me, I laud them in not idolizing the people I might idolize. If they’re shittier people, they’re gonna do it anyway. In either case, I’ll be worm food, and won’t give a crap. As an aside, several years ago I spent the summer in Boston. It was my first visceral realization of how crappy our monuments are here in the South. Everywhere you turn down here it seems that you see another monument to Confederate Civil war generals, politicians, and soldiers. Up in Boston? Monuments were to folks like nurses who helped out in the Revolutionary War and stuff. I’m not saying everyone in the Revolutionary war was an angel, but goddamn, compared to what we get down here, it was refreshing. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/24 "2017-04-24T22:34:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > As an aside, several years ago I spent the summer in Boston. It was my first visceral realization of how crappy our monuments are here in the South. Everywhere you turn down here it seems that you see another monument to Confederate Civil war generals, politicians, and soldiers. Up in Boston? Monuments were to folks like nurses who helped out in the Revolutionary War and stuff. I know where you can probably get a good deal on a Joe Paterno statue. Put a checkered hat on it and claim it’s The Bear! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/25 "2017-04-24T22:40:26Z")
We seem to remember Benedict Arnold just fine without a statue. Though he does have a memorial [of sorts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Monument). Take the fucking things down. If they have actual artistic or historic value, let some private group find a place for them. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/26 "2017-04-25T11:30:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > We seem to remember Benedict Arnold just fine without a statue. Though he does have a memorial [of sorts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Monument). > > Take the fucking things down. If they have actual artistic or historic value, let some private group find a place for them. Yeah – that always fascinated me. Benedict Arnold was apparently an impressive general who felt he got rooked by the Americans, went over to the British, and was an impressive general for them. I don’t think there ever were any statues to him, anywhere. We have the “boot memorial”. In London, a private citizen (a collateral descendant) put up a plaque at his own expense: > **[Why Benedict Arnold Is an 'American Patriot' ... in London](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/why-benedict-arnold-american-patriot-london-n48691)** > > How did the notorious Revolutionary War turncoat end up memorialized as an "American Patriot" on a building in London? > [@](#): > > “I think he was a good guy, you see. I don’t see him in the same light as so many Americans do,” Arnold told NBC News, explaining that he didn’t mean to upset anyone with his plaque — or create a diplomatic incident. > > Arnold said he has received telephone death threats — gruff American voices telling him he’s a traitor just like his ancestors. But he’s amused by them and used to other interpretations of Benedict Arnold and his deeds. > > “His heart was in America and he felt that what he was doing was in the interest of America as a country and the people who lived there. And at the end of the day he didn’t think we should be divorced from England and the king,” he said. “So somebody loved us!” The people who got killed when he burned New London, Connecticut might feel differently, but, then again, he killed a lot of British soldiers, too. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/27 "2017-04-25T22:07:45Z")
Since the object is a commemoration of cause célèbre cop killers, perhaps it should be displayed alongside tributes to Mumia Abu-Jamal and Leonard Peltier. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/28 "2017-04-26T03:25:27Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > I disagree. It is pretty obvious to everyone walking by that the monuments predate current sympathies. What 21st Century Italian believes a statue of Caesar is “who we are”? > > We are all the bigots to an unseen future. It is the best, not the worst, among us who will be memorialized for what will some day be seen as bigotry. Our heroes will have their statues hidden. Are you an American? Because I am. And the white supremacists that monument memorialized were not “our best.” I would be happy to publicly smash that monument to smithereens, and make any Kukluxers who want to keep it watch, their eyes held open Clockwork-Orange style. And I resent any implication that that is equivalent to burning the Library of Alexandria. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/29 "2017-04-26T03:52:30Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I specifically mentioned Loewen’s second book in the OP. Sorry, the mention skipped right past me. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/30 "2017-04-26T14:38:04Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > What 21st Century Italian believes a statue of Caesar is “who we are”? None. But I doubt many 21st century Italians see the principles that Caesar espoused as completely antithetical to those they hold most dear today. And to modify your own analogy to better fit the situation we’re discussing, I note that Italian law bans fascist symbols, and virtually all fascist-era statues have been destroyed or [removed](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/05/italy-fascist-statue-row-bigio). ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/31 "2017-04-26T15:13:00Z")
In Salem, Massachusetts, where they hanged nineteen people (and pressed one to death) as witches, they now have a statue of Elizabeth Montgomery as witch Samantha Stephens in Lappin Park. What the heck does that say about us?\* Don’t get me started about the statues of Ralph Kramden, Dr. Robert Hartley, Mary Richards, Andy Taylor, Opie Taylor, Elvis, and the Fonz. > **[TV Land](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_Land)** > > TV Land is an American pay television channel owned by Paramount Global through its networks division. Originally a spinoff of Nick at Nite consisting exclusively of classic television shows, the channel now airs a combination of recent and classic television series (ranging from the 1960s to the 2010s), original scripted series and limited theatrically released movies. The network is headquartered at One Astor Plaza in New York City. > TV Land is available to about 90 million households in the Un... \*I suspect it says that we’ll do anything for a buck, or that makes for a photo op. Tourists pose with the Bewitched statue and take pictures of themselves, because it’s cute and happy. Nobody does that at the Witchcraft Memorial. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/32 "2017-04-26T15:17:01Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > In Salem, Massachusetts, where they hanged nineteen people (and pressed one to death) as witches, they now have a statue of Elizabeth Montgomery as witch Samantha Stephens in Lappin Park. What the heck does that say about us?\* > > Don’t get me started about the statues of Ralph Kramden, Dr. Robert Hartley, Mary Richards, Andy Taylor, Opie Taylor, Elvis, and the Fonz. Rocky? I find the latter, including the “Ugly Lucy” that was replaced, pretty benign. Putting a cute witch statue in Salem is pretty insensitive and tourism-grasping, but if a town wants to celebrate a famous son or daughter known as a characters, no harm no foul. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/33 "2017-04-26T16:17:28Z")
“Won’t somebody please think of the white supremacists!” ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/34 "2017-04-26T17:30:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > When statues of Lenin were pulled down in Moscow, did you object to that? When swastikas were removed from German buildings, was that a problem?.. This question gets to the heart of the matter. If you thought that Eastern Europe pulling down statues of Lenin in the 90s was a good thing, why is it a bad thing for New Orleans to be removing statues from public spaces now? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/35 "2017-04-26T18:00:47Z")
I’ll point out that the “Liberty Monument” does NOT reflect the values of its time – it was hugely controversial from its start, and it was installed by a reactionary minority. There’s this persistent comfortable myth that people in the past were okay with racism and slavery and bigotry. It’s a lie – a lie of omission, at least. SOME people were supporters of those things, sure. But slavery and racism and similar hatreds have _always_ been opposed in every era by some outspoken individuals, and doubtless many more people knew it was wrong even if they personally avoided involvement. It’s entirely possible, for example, that a solid majority of people did not support slavery in their hearts even in the South, but an armed, angry minority enforced their own will over them. We may never know. But pretending people in the day did not know it was wrong is baloney. Hell, from the angry, defensive assertions of many pro-slavery politicians, it feels like they themselves knew it was wrong; they just weren’t going to give it up. > [@jtur88](#): > > I disagree. It is pretty obvious to everyone walking by that the monuments predate current sympathies. What 21st Century Italian believes a statue of Caesar is “who we are”? Well, the _20th century_ Fascists in Italy were thrilled when Mussolini explicitly took Caesar as a role model and began building an empire with military force. > [@jtur88](#): > > It is the best, not the worst, among us who will be memorialized for what will some day be seen as bigotry. Really? The statues to Rameses II, Hitler, Mussolini, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, and countless other tyrants and mass-murderers of history represent “the best among us?” ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/36 "2017-04-26T18:08:23Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Are you an American? Because I am. And the white supremacists that monument memorialized were not “our best.” > > I would be happy to publicly smash that monument to smithereens, and make any Kukluxers who want to keep it watch, their eyes held open Clockwork-Orange style. And I resent any implication that that is equivalent to burning the Library of Alexandria. Damn right. I’m from South Carolina and I’ve spoken on the steps of the State House trying to get that damned flag taken down. I hate that nine people had to die to make it happen, but it was for once a great day in South Carolina when it was gone. (And they didn’t just take down the flag and the pole, they jackhammered up the little concrete area where it was and pulled up the fence, too. Root and branch, motherfucker.) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/37 "2017-04-26T18:19:53Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > This question gets to the heart of the matter. If you thought that Eastern Europe pulling down statues of Lenin in the 90s was a good thing, why is it a bad thing for New Orleans to be removing statues from public spaces now? To my mind, the issue is whether the thing is itself a bit of history, or part of a still-ongoing controversy. Ramses III may have been a horrible despot - but no-one now is overly concerned about that; his statue is a matter of purely historical and aesthetic interest. Smashing it, now, would be vandalism; removing it from public sight, so it will not offend the eyes of passersby, would be pointless. In the US, racial matters have, unfortunately, not yet been settled. So such a “monument” isn’t yet a bit of history - it’s part of an ongoing controversy. Same as when the statues of Lenin came down in the '90s. Nowadays, Communism is pretty well defunct, outside of some oddball holdouts. Oddly enough, statues of Lenin and the like have passed into history faster than this “monument” to White Supremacy - you could more easily see a (surviving) statue of Lenin left as a marker of historical interest. That’s because racial animosity has had a longer shelf life than 20th century state Communism. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/38 "2017-04-26T18:25:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > When statues of Lenin were pulled down in Moscow, did you object to that? When swastikas were removed from German buildings, was that a problem? > > Public monuments aren’t just a discussion piece. They are propaganda pieces, demonstrating how the state thinks citizens should feel about a topic. If you want to remove them to a museum of propaganda where they can be analyzed, that’s fine–but we shouldn’t pretend that they’re value-neutral, nothing more than souvenirs from history. Perfectly stated. And, of course, perfectly ignored by the other side. I would like to see someone make an argument with a straight face that our understanding of World War II has been undermined as a result of swastikas being removed from buildings. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/39 "2017-04-26T18:45:21Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Rocky? > > I find the latter, including the “Ugly Lucy” that was replaced, pretty benign. Putting a cute witch statue in Salem is pretty insensitive and tourism-grasping, but if a town wants to celebrate a famous son or daughter known as a characters, no harm no foul. I’ll go further and say that only a heartless monster would decry [monuments like this one.](http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/paddington-bear-statue) Although I _would_ understand if future humans, after the Rise of the Planet of the Bears, treated old Paddington how the Allies treated this ornament on the Nuremberg soccer stadium: [Blowing Up The Swastika | Best Funny Gifs Updated Daily](http://www.gifbin.com/982392) ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135/40 "2017-04-26T18:58:59Z")
Perhaps the world ought to take a lesson from how the Buddhist world reacted to the Taliban blowing up those ancient Buddha statues? While this thread has lumped them in with other outrages over destruction of cultural monuments that’s actually pretty misinformed. In the case of the Buddha statues the Buddhist world generally took the, “Well, that’s unfortunate.”, attitude. Small pockets of outrage from mostly outsiders it’s true, but Buddhists just moved on mostly with no shrieking or outrage. Because ultimately it’s just a _ **thing** _. That represents something. And the something it represents, doesn’t need the _ **thing** _ to survive. In fact, it’s incidental. Just sayin’ ! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-monumen-t-in-new-orleans-taken-down/785135.md?page=3)