# "Liberty Valence", "Shane", I don't get 'em (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 10, 2016, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789 "2016-04-10T13:15:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/21 "2016-04-10T21:53:48Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Except that Wayne’s character (Tom Doniphon) wasn’t the “real hero”. Sure, he saved, Ranse from being killed and allowed him to be credited with killing Valance, in the process losing Hallie to him, but the real point of the film is that heroes are not made of single acts;when his cowpoke lifestyle is no longer viable. (…) > Stranger Thanks for the extended commentary, **Stranger**. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/22 "2016-04-10T23:55:01Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Except that Wayne’s character (Tom Doniphon) wasn’t the “real hero”. Sure, he saved, Ranse from being killed and allowed him to be credited with killing Valance, in the process losing Hallie to him, but the real point of the film is that heroes are not made of single acts; they’re the people who spend a lifetime fighting injustice and championing the betterment of others. Doniphon could have killed the brutal and villainous Valance at any time, and frankly, nobody but Valance’s crew (who he and Pompey could probably have taken out in one fell swoop) would have cared. (Valance knows this, hence why he steers clear of Doniphon.) But he allows Valance to terrorize the townfolk and people around the area because he figures it’s a problem for the weakling sheriff and the sparsely manned marshalls to deal with. > > Ranse Stoddard, on the other hand, came out West with a clutch full of law books and a dream of civilizing the West, giving it law and justice and, eventually, representation as a state. He had no prospects, and it was aptly clear that he was grossly inequipped to handle the perils of a West run by thugs and freerangers opposed to legal restrictions on grazing their cattle. He doesn’t tuck tail and run when beaten within an inch of his life by the eponymous villain; he stays and works to cover his room and board while he heals, then teaches the townfolk, including Pompey, the mestizo children, and of course Hallie to read and write, and more significantly, about the Constitution and the rights that they are all entitle to. Doniphon (in a fashion both typical of the characters Wayne typically played and Wayne himself in real life) has no real interest in this; he only comes around to aiding Doniphon because he sees how much this means to Hallie, and ultimately, what a better life this will make for her in the future when his cowpoke lifestyle is no longer viable. > > In the end, Stoddard becomes a hero in the public eye because he “killed” Liberty Valance. But his real heroism was pressing forward in representing the public over the interests of freerangers, and working tirelessly to help the people of Shinbone and the unnamed state that is formed even as it clear that he’s become weary of maintaining the genial senatorial personality for the public. The moral of the film is that we are so focused on the single public event that brings a figure into prominence and often don’t appreciate the real effort that makes a genuine hero, hence the need to “print the legend, not the facts”. Doniphon, and to a certain extent, Hallie, both made sacrifices to make this happen, and for his part, Stoddard bears the guilt of both having lied to achieve his star and having deprived his friend and savior of the woman that he loved most in the world, but he carries on for the public good. Thanks for this. It’s one thing to call it a deconstruction, but it helps when there’s an explanation (I sometimes need my hand held). I watched it years ago and my memory is vague, so it sure didn’t make an impact on me. Maybe I’ll re-watch it with this in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/23 "2016-04-11T02:02:38Z")
Personally, I figure Stoddard deserves the accolades for being the man who _faced_ Liberty Valence. Compared to that, just _shooting_ Valence is a relatively simple task requiring a steady hand but no real character. Though watching the scene again, I gotta say Stoddard’s kind of an idiot, approaching Valence the way he did. At least make a _plan_, dude! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/24 "2016-04-11T02:04:11Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Again, Tom Doniphan is not the hero of _Liberty Valance_, nor does the future that bookends the story the vision that Doniphan had for the West. Tom Doniphan (like Wayne) was very much a traditionalist who saw no reason to encourage literacy in his subordinate, mixed-race children, or his intended fiancee, and spends most of the film mocking the ideals that Ranse Stoddard promotes. He tries to run Stoddard off several times by demonstrating that he and is law books are no match for the merciless brutality of Valance and his gang (which includes a young Lee Van Cleef, BTW), and takes every opportunity to mock him publically. He eventually gains a grudging admiration for Stoddard and a recognition that the literacy and order that Stoddard stands for is the only viable future for Shinbone and the West, even though it means an end for his own way of life, and of course, the loss of Hallie to Stoddard. > > For her part, Hallie plays the role of the life of a politician’s wife to the hilt, but clearly has regret and sadness for the loss of Doniphn and his way of life. Stoddard himself has regret (hence, his insistance that Doniphan be buried with his boots, and his shock that Doniphan no longer carried a gun) and feels shame for his part in destroying that way of life despite the inevitablity and his lifelong effort to make life better for all, and it is that theme that informs the post-Valance portion of the story where Doniphan pushes Stoddard into running for election. Doniphan could have ended the reign of terror by killing Valance, even if he had to manipulate a conflict, and there would have been nothing but relief by both the townspeople and the sheriff, but it took Stoddard standing up to Valance in a hopless challenge where he would certainly lose for Doniphan to act. Doniphan made the choice to give up his way of life and Hallie, but it was Stoddard who took the risk in the brave stupidity of standing up to Valance in a gunfight he was guaranteed to lose, and the one who lived with the guilt of of his manufactured reputation and what it did to Doniphan. > > Stranger That was nicely done, Stranger. I’ll add a thank you as well. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/25 "2016-04-11T03:25:00Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Except that Wayne’s character (Tom Doniphon) wasn’t the “real hero”. Sure, he saved, Ranse from being killed and allowed him to be credited with killing Valance, in the process losing Hallie to him, but the real point of the film is that heroes are not made of single acts; they’re the people who spend a lifetime fighting injustice and championing the betterment of others. I disagree. What good is a Ranse Stoddard, who is willing to spend a lifetime fighting injustice and championing the betterment of others, if said lifetime is going to get cut short before he accomplishes any of that – because he done gets himself _killed_ when he tries to supply a dose of single-act heroism? Imagine a movie that played out how the Printed Legend goes: an idealist with law books sets to bring democracy and education to the frontier, reluctantly takes up arms only because he must, kills the bad guy, gets the girl, and dedicates the rest of his days to public service as The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance: _that’s_ a movie with no twist. That’s the story we tell to kids. It has a moral we can all get behind. That is, in essence, a lot of movies. That’s not this movie. _This_ movie says, _yeah, that’s not how the world works. You’re a darned nice guy who stands up to bad men? You’d die attempting a single act of heroism. You’d fail at it, is what I’m saying. Wait, what? You’ve read about a noble protagonist who decided to fight back for the first time, and triumphed because his heart was pure? Well, that story was a lie. Yes, I know they’ve made movies like that; whenever you see one, remember that, no, we just tell that story because we like that story._ > [@](#): > > In the end, Stoddard becomes a hero in the public eye because he “killed” Liberty Valance. But his real heroism was pressing forward in representing the public over the interests of freerangers, and working tirelessly to help the people of Shinbone and the unnamed state that is formed The only reason he gets to press forward in representing the interests of the public is because someone killed Valance: Stoddard tried to do it; Stoddard failed. Stoddard would’ve succeeded in representing _zero_ public interests, if the plan that started with “don’t tuck tail and run” had ended with “stand up to Valance and lose.” > [@](#): > > The moral of the film is that we are so focused on the single public event that brings a figure into prominence and often don’t appreciate the real effort that makes a genuine hero, hence the need to “print the legend, not the facts”. No. The moral of the story is, without someone who can actually do what needs to be done, all the “real effort” in a good cause is useless – pathetic – a _punchline._ This isn’t a story where a dewy-eyed exponent of reason can stop the bad guy with fearlessness; he’d get laughed at and shot, and die in the dirt without accomplishing anything, unless someone who can get the job done saves the day. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/26 "2016-04-11T03:40:47Z")
So, how exactly is Doniphon a hero for spending years letting Valance beat and terrorize the citizens of Shinbone, doing nothing but laughing at their weakness for not being able to stand up to Liberty Valance and his gang? Stoddard stood up and made a stand, knowing he was outmatched and literally outgunned, but doing ‘the right thing’ morally, which is the only thing that made the self-interested Doniphon act at all. That Doniphon killed Valance (shooting from concealment) only after seeing someone else make the kind of sacrifice he wasn’t interested in making, even though for him it would have been good odds, shows a lack of interest in the well-being of others that Stoddard brought with him and applied through his career. If Doniphon was the hero, the film should have ended after his shooting Valance, striding away rifle in hand. Instead, we get another two reels of the aftermath where he pushes Stoddard to suck up his self-hatred and pride and do what needed to be done, both in leading the territory to statehood and giving Hallie the future she deserved. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/27 "2016-04-11T03:44:29Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > So, how exactly is Doniphon a hero I don’t think I said Doniphon was a hero. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/28 "2016-04-11T10:32:29Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > If I recall correctly, there’s an amusing continuity problem in “Shane” - at the climax, Shane rides off to town for the gunfight, and the kid runs to follow him - reaching the town, on foot, in time to see the gunfight. How is that a continuity error? A child on foot will easily outrun a walking horse. If the distance is anything over ~10km a child on foot will only be a few minutes behind a \*running \*horse. People always overestimate how fast a ridden horse can travel and grossly underestimate how fast a child can travel. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/29 "2016-04-11T14:22:56Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Except that Wayne’s character (Tom Doniphon) wasn’t the “real hero”. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I disagree. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I don’t think I said Doniphon was a hero. Looked like it from here. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/30 "2016-04-11T14:27:37Z")
Most people like predictable movies. That’s why they make so many of 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/31 "2016-04-11T14:43:09Z")
I just rewatched the film last night to refresh my memory, and Doniphon is as I remembered; pretty much a self-absorbed dick who only comes to Stoddard’s aid after realizing that his death would crush Hallie. The story following the death of Valance is instructive; Stoddard is ready to give up until Doniphon assures him that “You didn’t kill anybody, pilgrim!” and explains what really happened. What I’ve forgotten was the performance by Woody Strode. Strode had a long career and occasionally more visible roles, but he’s kind of the silent moral center of this film; the looks he exchanges with Hallie and Ranse over Doniphon’s coffin; his attending Ranse’s schoolroom and stuttering over the Declaration of Independence, protesting that he knew the words but just couldn’t remember them; his constant presence with a Winchester, ready to aid Doniphon against Valance and his dudes; his escorting Doniphon home after shooting Valance, and then rescuing him from the burning house; his unremitting support for Doniphon long after anybody in Shinbone even remembered him. It’s really a great performance despite the very limited number of lines he actually has. He was also badass in the beginning of _Once Upon a Time in the West_ as one of Frank’s men sent to kill Harmonica, drinking drip water off of his hat, but of course he doesn’t last beyond the opening scene there. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/32 "2016-04-11T15:01:54Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > Looked like it from here. Well, sure, if you cut the rest of the quote I copy-and-pasted in my reply. But I didn’t place my “I disagree” after the sentence about Tom Doniphon; I carefully placed it after the _next_ sentence, about “the real point of the film”. That’s why, in all the passages that follow, you see me noting that Stoddard would’ve been a useless punchline who’d have gone on to accomplish nothing if he’d stood up to Valance and lost – I go on and on about it – but you don’t see me take it one step _further,_ to mentioning that Doniphon was a hero. It’s a terribly long post; I had _oodles_ of opportunities to toss in that claim. But all I wanted to disagree with, was the idea about “the real point of the film” – or, as I later quoted and replied to, the idea about the “moral of the film”. AFAICT, the point was that the very impulses that would llead Stoddard to accomplish so much later are – well, the same impulses that first put him in a situation where he would’ve lost everything and died as a laughingstock. Because, as good as he is ever after, he can’t _get_ there unless someone handles a problem that can’t be reasoned with: in a storybook legend, that would’ve been Stoddard; here, it’s not. See how I carefully stopped short of slapping one more sentence on the end, there? Because I totally could’ve slapped one more sentence on the end, there. But I didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/33 "2016-04-11T15:27:13Z")
I never liked the ending. The message is important to here, as a warning, not as justification. Stoddard and Doniphon were both self absorbed dicks IMHO. The movie fails because the viewer doesn’t take away the understanding that the “Wild West” was crock of lies made up to sell books, and the movie itself should be taken the same way. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/34 "2016-04-11T15:35:05Z")
The way I see it, Doniphon had so far lived by an older ethos in which he had no duty to save those who would not stand for themselves. But then he sees Stoddard stand for himself in his own way, and comes to conclude that Hallie and the children will have a better life only if the old frontier “be deadly or be prey” ethos gives way to civilization and rule of law. Yet, he also knows that Valance stands in the way willing to use deadly violence to prevent it, and will only let himself be removed the old-fashioned way. So now Doniphon must intervene – but the only way to do so AND allow Stoddard’s reforms to progress is to sacrifice all that would rightly be his by the old values. Stoddard, himself, realizes that to make that sacrifice worth it he has to accept from Tom the “borrowed valor” and play the role. The key part in this story is that both men decide to themselves keep their lip buttoned and “live the legend” for the good of the others. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/35 "2016-04-11T18:12:03Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m a fan of Lee Marvin but I think he ate too much scenery as Valance. Mad Dog Tannon does the sauntering around while limply holding his gun in Back to the Future. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/36 "2016-04-11T18:17:38Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Mad Dog Tannon does the sauntering around while limply holding his gun in Back to the Future. “Mad Dog? I hate that name! I hate it! You hear? Nobody calls me ‘Mad Dog’, especially not some duded-up, egg-suckin’ gutter trash!” Stranger ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/37 "2016-04-11T18:59:44Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Well, there was the bit at the end about going with the legend instead of the facts, but having Wayne be the real hero seemed like a mindless continuation of traditional Western storytelling. Not really… the “classic” way of telling the story would have been for the green, untested lawyer Stoddard(Stewart) to toughen up on the frontier, and eventually face down Valance and shoot him, and get the girl, while Doniphon(Wayne) would have been more of an avuncular supporting character in toughening up Stoddard. Instead, we get the situation where Stoddard didn’t really toughen up, didn’t kill Valance, but still got the girl and the renown as a hero, which he parlayed into a long and successful political career. Meanwhile, Doniphon was the real hero, shooting Valance secretly, as he wanted the girl he loved to have the man she loved (Stoddard). He basically sacrificed his own happiness and fame for the woman he loved, and ends up messing up his own house and ending up with Woody Strode at the end. That’s why the newspaper editor says the bit about printing the legend rather than the truth. And, the older style western about the same story would have been about the legend, not the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/38 "2016-04-11T19:40:24Z")
Please forgive a brief highjack, but I’ve asked this before and never gotten an answer… In the scene where Liberty Valence gets shot…was this filmed only once, with two cameras, or did they film the scene twice? I’ve tried and tried and tried to compare the two death scenes – the floppings and twistings and thrashings of Lee Marvin’s demise – and can’t figure if it’s exactly the same in both. Anybody know? ETA: I love that movie! I’m mostly fond of Lee Marvin in just about anything. He’s a right cool actor. He’s the best thing in “Cat Ballou.” The second best thing in “Cat Ballou” are the two minstrel singers performing the ballad. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/39 "2016-04-11T19:46:06Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’m mostly fond of Lee Marvin in just about anything. He’s a right cool actor. He’s the best thing in “Cat Ballou.” The second best thing in “Cat Ballou” are the two minstrel singers performing the ballad. _The Big Red One_ and _The Professionals_ come to mind. “yes, Sir. In my case an accident of birth, but you, Sir, are a self made man.” ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/40 "2016-04-11T20:21:42Z")
Or _Point Blank_: “I want my money. I want my ninety-three thousand dollars.” I believe by the lighting that the scene was shot twice, but I’d have to trace out the sightlines to be sure. Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789.md?page=3)