# "Liberty Valence", "Shane", I don't get 'em (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 10, 2016, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789 "2016-04-10T13:15:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2016, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/41 "2016-04-12T01:03:15Z")
Hallie _gets off the train_ with the empty hatbox. ---
**Author:** ![EBird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@EBird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EBird)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/42 "2016-04-12T02:21:42Z")
Doniphon saved Stoddards life. At great personal cost -for the greater good- he stepped away. He quietly lived with his choice for the remainder of his life. He asked for nothing in return. He’s a hero. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2016, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/43 "2016-04-12T02:24:37Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The second best thing in “Cat Ballou” are the two minstrel singers performing the ballad. [Nat King Cole and Stubby Kaye.](http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/221350/Cat-Ballou-Movie-Clip-Ballad-of-Cat-Ballou.html) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2016, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/44 "2016-04-12T02:27:32Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Please forgive a brief highjack, but I’ve asked this before and never gotten an answer… > > In the scene where Liberty Valence gets shot…was this filmed only once, with two cameras, or did they film the scene twice? I’ve tried and tried and tried to compare the two death scenes – the floppings and twistings and thrashings of Lee Marvin’s demise – and can’t figure if it’s exactly the same in both. Anybody know? Without knowing anything about the production of that movie, I would guess that there’s very little chance that all the shots were taken simultaneously with multiple cameras. The difficulty you experience in telling one take from another is very likely intentional to disguise the differences between shots. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/45 "2016-04-12T19:30:32Z")
Here is the master’s take on John Wayne and WW II. > **[Was John Wayne a draft dodger?](https://www.straightdope.com/21342206/was-john-wayne-a-draft-dodger)** AS for Shane, personally I think it is a terrific movie and one of the best Westerns ever made. Brandon DeWilde did a terrific job of conveying the innocence and nativity that most children have (or should have). It’s more complex movie than might appear at first blush. One of the best aspects of the movie is the pacing and the score. It starts of slowly and then increases the pressure as the movie progresses and the score follows suit. The locations also aren’t all pristine. The town is a dump and the first killing occurs on a muddy, ugly street with the sun coming in and out from behind the clouds. The characters aren’t one-dimensional and even the movie’s villains are fleshed out and given real motivations. Ryker genuinely believes that it’s his land and that he has the right to full, unfettered access. Is his mind (and there is some truth to it), he and his brothers and others like him cleared the area for the settlers and thus have a claim to the land. So you can understand his motivations. Shane himself is a deeply flawed figure, as one of the homesteaders points out, Shane is basically a murderer. His relationship with Marian isn’t just about a physical attraction (though it’s there and quite palpable for the movie made in the 50’s) but about the attraction of a different life. Him to her life of family and honesty and her’s to his life of adventure and excitement. They both realise that they can never live that other life and it’s one of the saddest parts of the movie. Shane gets a chance to be redeemed but his life (assuming he lives) is never going to change insofar as he’s always going to be what he is. The father, Starrett is also a complicated figure. He’s probably the best person in the movie not only because of what he does but because of what he doesn’t do. He tries his best, he’s honest and a true husband, father and indeed friend. He sees what’s going on between Shane and Marion but he doesn’t try to stop it nor do he try to poison the relationship. He knows Shane is a killer but he never tries to use him and in fact does everything he can to stop Shane from fighting his battles for him. As Shane himself notes, Joe is the better man. I think it’s a wonderful movie with characters of depth and meaning. Of course your mileage my vary. Funnily enough, I share the same view as Woody Allen on this one: > **[WATCHING MOVIES WITH: WOODY ALLEN; Coming Back To 'Shane' (Published 2001)](https://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/03/movies/watching-movies-with-woody-allen-coming-back-to-shane.html?pagewanted=all)** > > Article in Watching Movies With series interviews Woody Allen, who discusses George Stevens's 1953 film Shane; highlights of Allen's career noted; photos (M) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/46 "2016-04-12T19:49:51Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > His relationship with Marian isn’t just about a physical attraction (though it’s there and quite palpable for the movie made in the 50’s) but about the attraction of a different life. Him to her life of family and honesty and her’s to his life of adventure and excitement. They both realise that they can never live that other life and it’s one of the saddest parts of the movie. Very good, Lochdale. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/47 "2017-01-09T22:26:19Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > How is that a continuity error? > > A child on foot will easily outrun a walking horse. If the distance is anything over ~10km a child on foot will only be a few minutes behind a \*running \*horse. > > People always overestimate how fast a ridden horse can travel and grossly underestimate how fast a child can travel. Thanks. I did overestimate the speed of the horse/underestimate the speed of the kid. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/48 "2017-01-10T05:58:22Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > People always overestimate how fast a ridden horse can travel and grossly underestimate how fast a child can travel. People, especially novelists and script-writers and video game programmers, always underestimate the degree to which a horse is not a motorcycle. I think that’s the main problem: Modern authors, who wouldn’t know the blind side of a horse if it knocked them across the stable, want to write period fiction and only view the horse as a vehicle. Their archetype for “vehicle” is something gas-powered, reliable, and fast, so they have a mental horse with the speed and stamina of a four-stroke engine as opposed to a four-legged mammal, because that’s what you need to get through a desert or up a sheer vertical cliff. (Yeah, some games are… weird.) > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Shane! Shane! SHAAAAAAANNNNNNEEEE!\* “Brain! Brain! Come back, Brain! _Narf!_” Hey, that’s what popped into _my_ head. > [@](#): > > All I can say to that is NOOOOOOOOO! DO NOT WANT! ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/49 "2017-01-10T14:00:29Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > ETA: I love that movie! I’m mostly fond of Lee Marvin in just about anything. He’s a right cool actor. **He’s the best thing in “Cat Ballou.” The second best thing in “Cat Ballou” are the two minstrel singers performing the ballad.** Zombie or not, I can’t let this statement go unchallenged. The **horse** was the second best thing in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/50 "2017-01-10T14:46:03Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Zombie or not, I can’t let this statement go unchallenged. The **horse** was the second best thing in the movie. Lee Marvin thanked Smoky the horse when he accepted his Best Actor Oscar for the movie. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/51 "2017-01-10T15:43:39Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Modern authors, who wouldn’t know the blind side of a horse if it knocked them across the stable, want to write period fiction and only view the horse as a vehicle. Their archetype for “vehicle” is something gas-powered, reliable, and fast, so they have a mental horse with the speed and stamina of a four-stroke engine as opposed to a four-legged mammal, because that’s what you need to get through a desert or up a sheer vertical cliff. (Yeah, some games are… weird.) Truly. I read a fantasy novel once (title and author mercifully forgotten) where the hero rides 1,500 miles in a month on the same horse. That’s 50 miles a day. Can you ride a horse 50 miles in a day? Sure, especially with modern feeds. Can you ride a horse another 50 miles the next day? M-m-maybe; depends on the terrain and the horse. Third day you’re definitely going to need a fresh horse. To quote Dorothy Parker, “[This is a book] that should be thrown against the wall with great force.” One of the legendary feats of the [Arizona Rangers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_Rangers) was that they received a message from a rancher near Holbrook that a large herd of his cattle had been stolen. From their HQ in Douglas, a squad of rangers rode to Holbrook in two days. There, they _obtained fresh mounts_, and rode after the bad guys, chasing them into New Mexico territory (time and distance unspecified). After catching up with them, they rode back to Holbrook with the cows and surviving bandits. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/52 "2017-01-10T16:43:26Z")
The real twist, had the filmmakers been brave enough for it, would be for the _woman_ to have shot Liberty Valance. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/53 "2017-01-10T18:16:04Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The thing is they weren’t “by-the-book” at the time the movies were made. They went against previous cliches of the genre. Now that we have been seeing these kinds of plots for more than sixty years it’s easy to overlook that they were breaking new ground at the time. It’s like not realizing how innovative _Citizen Kane_ was because its innovations soon became standard. > > “I don’t know what’s so great about Shakespeare. It’s just a bunch of old quotations strung together.” 🙂 This is it in a nutshell. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789/54 "2017-01-10T21:06:02Z")
Grin! That was a jolly fun horse! He should have had a larger role! (Like the horse in “The Villain” who pretty much steals the show.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberty-valence-shane-i-dont-get-em-spoilers/751789.md?page=2)