# Liberty's crown and torch **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 29, 2000, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertys-crown-and-torch/7988 "2000-02-29T03:29:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ursa\_Major](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a88e57/32.png) [@Ursa\_Major](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ursa_Major)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertys-crown-and-torch/7988/1 "2000-02-29T03:29:00Z")
I sent this question to Cecil while the board was down and Jill kicked it back with the suggestion I ask it here. I understand why the personification of Justice has the scales and the blindfold, but why does the personification of Liberty (for example, that big thing on New Jersey’s side of New York Harbor) sport a crown and a torch? Isn’t a crown a symbol of monarchy and tyranny? I suppose the torch represents “enlightenment” but what does that have to do with liberty? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertys-crown-and-torch/7988/2 "2000-02-29T04:43:00Z")
Try this site for some explanations: [http://xroads.virginia.edu/~CAP/LIBERTY/lady\_frm.html](http://xroads.virginia.edu/~CAP/LIBERTY/lady_frm.html) This short answer > [@](#): > > The Statue of Liberty is crowned with a helmet of sun-ray spikes, an allusion to the headgear of the Colossus of Rhodes, a monument to the Sun-God Helios standing astride a Greek harbor, which is said to be one of the key influences on the New York statue. The Statue of Liberty’s gown folds around her like a classical Greek toga; the torch in her hand gestures back to images of Liberty holding out an offering to the Bald Eagle." ## needs to be put in context of the larger article. Tom~ ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertys-crown-and-torch/7988/3 "2000-02-29T19:02:00Z")
(Sigh!) 1. It’s the _goddess_ of Liberty. 2. The title is “Liberty Enlightening the World”. * * * John W. Kennedy “Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.” – Charles Williams ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertys-crown-and-torch/7988/4 "2000-02-29T19:15:00Z")
Goddess of Liberty? Er, never heard of that one. What pantheon? ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertys-crown-and-torch/7988/5 "2000-03-01T20:48:00Z")
The Romans had a god or goddess of everything, and, in particular, had a temple for the Goddess of Liberty from 238 B.C. on. Although their religion is long dead, it continues to influence art (and the Federalists were very self-consciously neo-Roman, too). Before this century, almost all American coins had the Goddess of Liberty on 'em, unless they had an Amerind. * * * John W. Kennedy “Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.” – Charles Williams ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertys-crown-and-torch/7988/6 "2000-03-01T21:43:00Z")
I think “Personification of Libery” is more appropriate than “_Goddess_ of Liberty.” She may have been inspired by a Roman godess, but noone worships her anymore. Besides, I don’t remember ever learning about a god/godess of liberty in either the Greek or Roman pantheon. * * * –It was recently discovered that research causes cancer in rats. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2000, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertys-crown-and-torch/7988/7 "2000-03-02T00:25:00Z")
That’s because you only learned about the Greek pantheon, plus the names of the Roman gods that the Romans identified with the Greek gods. The Romans had a _lot_ of gods. They had a god of thresholds, and a god of cutting umbilical cords, and a god of soldiers-running-away-turning-around-and-being-brave-again, and every family had its own private gods, to boot. The Romans and Greeks were much less alike than we tend to think. But the Roman gods had no mythology to speak of, so they co-opted the Greek tales for their own, and since we only get the myths, we misunderstand the situation. And the French have always been inclined to neoclassicism, and so was the early USA. (The cities of Cincinatti, Syracuse, Utica, and many others remain as testimony.) * * * John W. Kennedy “Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.” – Charles Williams ---
**Author:** ![earendel1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c68b51/32.png) [@earendel1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/earendel1)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2000, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertys-crown-and-torch/7988/8 "2000-03-02T13:24:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by John W. Kennedy: > **The Romans had a _lot_ of gods. They had a god of thresholds, and a god of cutting umbilical cords, and a god of soldiers-running-away-turning-around-and-being-brave-again, and every family had its own private gods, to boot. The Romans and Greeks were much less alike than we tend to think. But the Roman gods had no mythology to speak of, so they co-opted the Greek tales for their own, and since we only get the myths, we misunderstand the situation.** Indeed. Known as the lares and the penates they were part and parcel of the Roman household. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2000, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertys-crown-and-torch/7988/9 "2000-03-02T16:32:00Z")
Those who failed to make appropriate sacrifice to the god-to-prevent-toilets-backing-up soon learned the error of their foolish agnostic ways. ---
**Author:** ![Keeves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f05b48/32.png) [@Keeves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeves)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2000, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertys-crown-and-torch/7988/10 "2000-03-02T16:46:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Diceman: > **I think “Personification of Libery” is more appropriate than “_Goddess_ of Liberty.” She may have been inspired by a Roman godess, but no one worships her anymore.** On the contrary, I believe that Liberty is worshipped by far too many Americans, namely those who view every peace-keeping and safety-oriented law as an encroachment on their personal Liberty. Speed limits and seat belts are among my favorite examples.