# Libraries becoming obsolete faster than I thought **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 1, 2024, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712 "2024-04-01T23:56:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/21 "2024-04-03T08:31:03Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > Being blessed to live near major university libraries, I often enjoyed the free visit and browse on a rainy Sunday afternoon. I’m originally from Toronto, but I did my law degree at the University of Alberta, in Edmonton. I was so glad that the U of A subscribed to Toronto papers! Sometimes, they would arrive same-day, so I could read Tuesday’s news on Tuesday. Never mind, even a day late (and they were never more than a day late) brought me up-to-date on news from home. You may be interested to know that I spent a lot of time in Perth, Australia, over a few visits, each lasting a month at least. I got to know the state library, the Alexander Library, very well, as it was where I went to keep up with Canadian news. It had daily subscriptions to the _Globe and Mail_ and the _Toronto Star_ and a few other Canadian newspapers, and the papers were always one or two days late. But even though this was prior to the Internet, I could at least keep up-to-date, kinda-sorta, on news from home. Libraries are important. They kept me informed on home doings when I was halfway across the country, and later, halfway around the world. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/22 "2024-04-03T12:16:31Z")
I mean you may be right, I just expect a basic _library_ to have stacks and stacks of books and journals, otherwise the name is highly misleading. I do not need to walk into a library to download online resources [and I’m all about expanding online resources]. Less work for them since everyone is doing that (maybe that’s a good thing?) but is that a reason to decommission the facility? Evidently some administrator thought to save a buck that way, and is probably going to spin it as modern, but is it a prestigious look (let alone a wise move)? For some tenuous reason that reminds me of the article about people buying fake books by the yard because they think it makes them look studious: [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/28/realestate/fake-books-decor.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/28/realestate/fake-books-decor.html) ---
**Author:** ![minor7flat5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minor7flat5/32/258_2.png) [@minor7flat5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minor7flat5)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/23 "2024-04-03T13:02:17Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > One of my college profs said, “If you’ve never cut class for the pleasure of browsing the library, you’re missing one of the treats of your undergraduate experience.” > > I don’t remember ever cutting class to do so, but I spent quite a bit of time browsing the stacks at the library. It’s a shame if today’s students can’t (or don’t) do so. That’s cool. I never cut class for the purpose, but I can definitely support the idea. It brings back memories of evening classes, when I would get out of work at 4, hop on Route 1 and drive up to Rutgers, grab a meal at the grease trucks, then go to the library to either do my homework or simply browse the stacks for an hour or so before class. There was something very neat about perusing bound collections of Popular Mechanics magazine from the 1950s–the magazine was a half inch thick back then. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/24 "2024-04-03T14:06:29Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I mean you may be right, I just expect a basic _library_ to have stacks and stacks of books and journals, otherwise the name is highly misleading. I don’t think the name is necessarily misleading at all - institutions change. When I was a kid, you could browse what was in the library branch that you were actually standing in. If you wanted a particular book, you could look for it in the card catalog. You could fill out a postcard, pay the postage and reserve a book if it was checked out. I don’t even remember how or if you could request a book from another branch. If I wanted to read a back issue of a magazine, it was in a bound volume that didn’t leave the library. Somewhere around 2000 , things started to change. I could request books on-line and have them sent to any branch I wanted for pick-up. I could browse the online catalog and find any book in the library’s collection , not just in the branch I was standing in but in any one of the 66 branches. I could browse based on whatever factors were important to me, while in-person browsing was limited to books that were available right then and in reality, whichever books the staff chose to put in the various displays such as “new and popular” because I rarely browsed the actual shelves. For patrons like me, at this point they could have kept all the books in a warehouse and it wouldn’t have mattered. I was requesting books based on what I saw and heard in the media - either reviews or mentions of a book in a story/article. When I went into the branch to pick up my requests , I might pick up one that caught my eye in addition to my five or ten requests. And then came the ebooks and the digital magazines and streaming movies. I haven’t been in a branch except to renew my card in about ten years. As more and more of their patrons become like me , there is less and less need for space to keep physical books in the branches and more of the space is being used for other community activities ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/25 "2024-04-03T14:51:13Z")
A university I attended in the early to mid 90s, already had a lot of their book collection as well as journals (this is when everything was print) off-site (I think in the bowels of the building). You would submit your requests and come back in an hour or so and they would have everything waiting for you including the photocopies of the journal articles. I thought it was great compared to another university I attended that had at least 5 libraries and you often needed stuff from a couple of them for a project and it was up to you to travel to all to retrieve, photocopy on your own, etc. Our local public library still has everything out for perusing but they also check out things like musical instruments, cameras, etc. I print so rarely that we got rid of our home printer and we use the library when we need something. You get enough free printing that it works for us. Plus, it is only a short diversion on my ride home after work. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/26 "2024-04-03T15:22:48Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > in the bowels of the building Books are heavy, right? However many hundred pounds per square foot of shelving. Not sure whether going deep underground is more efficient, but for sure the building needs to be designed to support the weight. The Mitterrand site of the French National Library, with its multiple glass towers, “ran into huge cost overruns and technical difficulties related to its high-rise design”. The entire library (including 14 million books), which is open to the public, has an annual budget of over €250 million— nobody said a proper library was cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/27 "2024-04-03T15:30:21Z")
I think university libraries are going strong. But they used to have whole floors devoted to bulky journals that I presume have now been digitized and are much more convenient to access. I wouldn’t want to attend a university with a poor library system. If doing serious research or modern work you need access to lots of information. And of course you need a place to study. As for municipal libraries, they are also invaluable and should be fully funded to increase educational opportunities for younger folks and entertainment and knowledge for older ones. Though they now have plenty of movies, music, courses and co outlets, they also seem to be doing a lot for disadvantaged people. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/28 "2024-04-03T15:36:01Z")
As a person that works on capital projects including major renovations…yep! I have a civil engineering degree, but I am not working as a CE on these projects. Multi-floor libraries require stronger floors, particularly if you will be putting in a lot of condensed shelving. ---
**Author:** ![racer72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/racer72/32/3075_2.png) [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/29 "2024-04-03T15:52:11Z")
I use my local library for their auto repair manuals. Find what I need and make photocopies of those pages. About 10 years ago they went to online manuals, still 10 cents a page to copy and much easier to print than from the thick books of the past. I also used their CD collection to greatly expand my music collection. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/30 "2024-04-03T17:29:25Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > You could fill out a postcard, pay the postage and reserve a book if it was checked out. Huh? Why would you have had to mail a postcard to reserve a book at the library you were standing in? You probably did have to fill out some bit of paper; but I can’t imagine why you’d have needed to mail it. Or where to. > [@doreen](#): > > I could browse based on whatever factors were important to me I’ve found considerable joy in finding something that I had no idea was important to me until I came across that particular book or magazine. Our local libraries are part of a 40 library system and yes you can order books online. But you can also wander around and browse the physical shelves. I don’t see why this has to be an either-or. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@Mark\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mark_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/31 "2024-04-03T17:31:45Z")
Our downtown 5-floor public library is doing well. One floor is dedicated to audio and video, and anyone with a library card can select an item, and watch/listen with the devices provided. A separate soundproof room has some old phonographs which can be used with special permission. The problem with free libraries like this (you don’t need a library card to enter) is that the homeless are tempted by the comfortable furniture. There are a couple of security guards near the entrance - mostly to keep the most undesirables out (odor, sobriety, etc) - otherwise anyone can simply walk in. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/32 "2024-04-03T17:35:42Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Huh? Why would you have had to mail a postcard to reserve a book at the library you were standing in? > > You probably did have to fill out some bit of paper; but I can’t imagine why you’d have needed to mail it. Or where to. Sorry - I didn’t need to mail it. I had to pay the postage for them to mail me the postcard when the book arrived at the branch. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I don’t see why this has to be an either-or. It doesn’t - but it’s possible that a library might have so many patrons like me and so few like you that they determine some of the space used to shelve books could be used differently. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/33 "2024-04-03T17:39:44Z")
I used to do that in high school, took the bus that went the other way and spend the day in the library. That’s where I read The Lord of the Rings in fact. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/34 "2024-04-03T18:09:27Z")
By the 80s, my local library had some sort of networked computer system that let you view the catalog for the entire system on a terminal and place orders for any items that were at other branches. I don’t know how, if at all, they notified the patron that it was in: My routine was to just go every week, drop off the last week’s batch of books, pick up this week’s batch, and order the next week’s. By the way, if anyone’s wondering, K-12 school libraries do still have shelves of books, though with less space devoted to the shelves now and more to study desks and the like. If the school has a makerspace, it’s usually attached to / part of the library. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/35 "2024-04-03T18:18:11Z")
Having just coached my youngest through a research heavy degree, college libraries are not dead. They aren’t what I remembered though. Back in the olden days, we took our notecards to the library to thumb through journals and research articles and books looking for support for our thesis. You really weren’t expected - particularly as an undergrad - to provide more than a handful of sources - because research was labor intensive. Most current research is on line and accessible through services like JSTOR and from there, the material is easily searchable. So you can write a lot of papers without every needing to touch a physical book and in a Saturday can come up with more sources and footnotes than I could gather in a semester of hard labor back in the 80s. But then there are the books. Many scholarly books don’t have an ebook form for you to check out and scan through - so you are often getting those books from the library - but often through interlibrary loans because your college library can’t have EVERYTHING. And books are often far more in depth and useful than a series of journal articles. So its still a delay to get your hands on a lot of the books you really want. My youngest would often just buy the book, if still in print or available used via the internet, rather than dealing with the interlibrary loan and delays. So I can see where a college in need of space might move their books offsite. ---
**Author:** ![Lsura](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Lsura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lsura)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/36 "2024-04-03T19:36:15Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Libraries are _changing_, but they are not going obsolete, I can assure you. Academic librarian, and absolutely. Our electronic collections get significantly more use than our print collections. This started pre-covid but has accelerated since. We still have books - most of 5 floors of them, in fact - and while we haven’t moved significant off site, a GaTech/Emory have a collaborative “library service center” where Tech sent almost all it’s books while Emory made a selection. I lead a unit of librarians who are deeply engaged in the research work of the disciplines - this includes teaching, reference, outreach, and many other kinds of assistance. Not dead, just changing. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/37 "2024-04-03T21:09:05Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Sorry - I didn’t need to mail it. I had to pay the postage for them to mail me the postcard when the book arrived at the branch. Ah; thanks for explanation. I don’t remember that stage; they would just use the phone. Maybe calling your phone incurred a charge for the library? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/38 "2024-04-03T21:36:48Z")
Maybe - but it was probably just easier to drop the pre-addressed pre-stamped postcard in the mail than calling (especially since for most of that time answering machines/voice mail were not common) ---
**Author:** ![Eric1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@Eric1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric1)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/39 "2024-04-03T22:22:46Z")
I hope libraries see fit to stay open. When I go I take a crate, not a bag. It probably looks like I’m shoplifting. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712/40 "2024-04-03T23:07:33Z")
The Toronto Public Library system is the highest used per capita public library system in the world. Unfortunately, we were hit by a ransomware attack in October that affected all library services until the end of February. Lending continued to operate but they reverted to a paper and pen sign out system. As books came back, they just stored them offsite as there was no easy way to check them back in. When they finally brought the catalogue back up they had more that 1 million books to check back in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-becoming-obsolete-faster-than-i-thought/999712.md?page=3)