# Libraries -- some quibbles **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [January 14, 2006, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-some-quibbles/339981 "2006-01-14T18:18:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![japastor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@japastor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/japastor)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-some-quibbles/339981/1 "2006-01-14T18:18:03Z")
A couple of quibbles about Dex’s piece (1/13/2006) on libraries. “We’re not sure what role Franklin had in this venture; his own writings are boastful and probably overstate his contribution.” Um, and you say this _why_? In particular, what evidence do you have that Franklin was not, as is commonly believed (particularly here in Philadelphia), instrumental in the creation of the library? Given his track record for innovation – or are you challenging that as well? – it’s not difficult for me (or, evidently, many others, including the [LCoP](http://www.librarycompany.org/instance.htm) itself) to imagine that he was the mover and shaker here. Also, allow me to introduce you to Murasaki Shikibu (the author of the _Tale of Genji_, which was written sometime in the late 10th or early 11th century) and Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra (the author of _Don Quixote_, written starting around 1602 “to mock the popular \*\*novels \*\* of chivalry which glorified the ideals of courtesy, constancy, bravery and loyalty.”), who were somewhat alarmed to hear you refer to “that 18th century innovation, (gasp!) novels.” They wonder if you meant to say “that 18th century innovation, \*English \* novels.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-some-quibbles/339981/2 "2006-01-14T19:04:39Z")
First, housekeeping. The correct date is 17-Jan-2006 for [How did public libraries get started?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mpublibrary.html). As to the novel, the English novel is older than the 18th century, too (_ee.g.,_ _Rosalynde, Euphues Golden Legacie_ [1590], by Thomas Lodge, on which Shakespeare based _As You Like It_, and _Oroonoko; or, the Royal Slave_ [1688], by Aphra Behn), and the novel as a form can be traced back to the Roman Empire. But it is generally agreed that in _Pamela: or, Virtue Rewarded_ (1740), _Clarissa: or the History of a Young Lady_ (1748), and _The History of Sir Charles Grandison_ (1753), Samuel Richardson turned a major corner in art, as profound as when Bobbie Koshay, in a sepia dress, backs out of the camera’s view, and Judy Garland, in blue gingham, steps into her place. There are novels older than _Pamela_, but in a very real sense, _Pamela_ is nevertheless the first novel. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-some-quibbles/339981/3 "2006-01-14T21:17:45Z")
The educated (multilingual) English were reading novels from other languages by the mid 16th century. That’s when the Italian born French bishop Matteo Bandello’s novel, _Giulietta e Romeo_, written ca. 1530, was translated no later than the 1550s by Arthur Brooke into the English language poem _The Tragicall Historie of Romeus and Juliett_, from which Shakespeare (whoever he was) almost certainly got the inspiration for his play (unless Shakespeare also read Giuletta e Romeo). Trivia about Melvil Dewey: he was one of the first prominent public figures to be sued in court (repeatedly and by different plaintiffs at that) for sexual harassment. By the end of his career his secretaries and staff were usually all male because the word was out and women would not work for him. It’s surprising how much the position of librarians has turned around over the years. At one point librarians were among the most censorious of people, most refusing to allow anything of great controversy or sexually suggestive material, including birth control or the like or any other thing that would offend nutcases like Comstock, onto library shelves. A wonderful quote from ALA President Arthur Bostwick in 1908: > [@](#): > > “Some are born great; some achieve greatness; some have greatness thrust upon them.” It is in this way that librarians have become a censor of literature…Books that distinctly commend what is wrong, that teach how to sin and how pleasant sin is, sometimes with and sometimes without the added sauce of impropriety, are increasingly popular, tempting the author to imitate them, the publishers to produce, the bookseller to exploit. Thank Heaven they do not tempt the librarian. Today most librarians are militantly dedicated to intellectual freedom and are for likely to be guarding _The Joy of Gay Sex_ or _The Turner Diaries_ from removal than to be complicit in its banning. There are exceptions of course- I’ve known Fundie librarians especially who have expressed major concerns over materials they deemed offensive, but on the whole even the ones who still do have their hair in buns and wear thick glasses and go to church every Sunday are not likely to bat an eyelash when somebody needs to find information on, say, the best sexual positions for getting pregnant or the current trends in Satanism. The funny thing is that they are still usually stereotyped as prudes and tightasses in popular media. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-some-quibbles/339981/4 "2006-01-14T22:27:06Z")
No, I’m not doubting Franklin’s greatness in general. I did credit him with the invention of the social library. He made the first attempt at a social library (in 1731, and it fizzled very quickly.) He wrote about his idea, of course, and others took it up. The first incorporation of such a library was over a decade later. Exactly who played what role during this time is not clear. Once Franklin came up with the idea, many other people got on the bandwagon and played roles in the subsequent development. You’d not guess that, however, from Franklin’s writings, you’d think he did everything single-handedly during that decade of development. In terms of the novel: sheesh, a guy can’t even make a joke. I was talking about the surge of popularity and the flood of novels (yes, OK, in English) that became available to the public, and that was innovative: pop culture, if you will. Basically, I found it amusing that librarians debates\d whether those new-fangled things should be made available through libraries. The fact that they had their roots in much earlier works wasn’t the relevant point. Coming soon (probably in about two weeks), I’ve got a second Staff Report on Melvil Dewey and his decimal classification system. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-some-quibbles/339981/5 "2006-01-15T02:14:21Z")
“By tea-time, however, the dose had been enough, and Mr. Bennet was glad to take his guest into the drawing-room again, and, when tea was over, glad to invite him to read aloud to the ladies. Mr. Collins readily assented, and a book was produced; but, on beholding it (for everything announced it to be from a circulating library), he started back, and begging pardon, protested that he never read novels.” – _Pride and Prejudice_ ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-some-quibbles/339981/6 "2006-01-15T14:57:02Z")
Thanks, **John** , very neat! That’s of course from 1813, and from England. The history and development of publilc libraries in other countries is interesting, but there was a limit… and that bloody report was already too long. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-some-quibbles/339981/7 "2006-01-15T21:11:57Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > Coming soon (probably in about two weeks), I’ve got a second Staff Report on Melvil Dewey and his decimal classification system. If you’re writing about the Dewey Decimal System, please be sure to include a reference to the [Caveman theory](http://mte.anacortes.k12.wa.us/library/dewey/deweystory.htm), which is the reason I can still recite the major dewey classifications to this day (“100 - Philosophy…200 - Religion…”) ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-some-quibbles/339981/8 "2006-01-15T21:37:54Z")
Please also refer to the Library of Congress classification system used by the vast majority of research libraries but which most people are unfamiliar with. I work daily with SuDocs (short for “The Superintendent of Documents Classification System”) which is actually more logical when you get used to it but is only useful for U.S. Government information (of which some libraries have millions of pieces). And as always a cool nod to Callimachus, the first cataloguer, would be nice, and the curse of Ashurbanipal at Nineveh’s library: > [@](#): > > May [the 12 gods named on these walls] curse anyone who breaks, defaces, or removes this tablet with a curse which cannot be relieved, terrible and merciless as long as he lives. May they let his name perish, his children be carried off from the land as slaves, and may dogs consume his flesh. Compared to which, $.25 per day is really quite reasonable as a late fee. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-some-quibbles/339981/9 "2006-01-15T22:05:36Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Please also refer to the Library of Congress classification system used by the vast majority of research libraries … … in the United States. I don’t think anyone has properly researched the question, but I don’t think that any one classification scheme is used in the majority of research libraries in the world. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2006, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-some-quibbles/339981/10 "2006-01-15T22:10:23Z")
> [@](#): > > And as always a cool nod to Callimachus, the first cataloguer, would be nice, and the curse of Ashurbanipal at Nineveh’s library: > Quote: > May [the 12 gods named on these walls] curse anyone who breaks, defaces, or removes this tablet with a curse which cannot be relieved, terrible and merciless as long as he lives. May they let his name perish, his children be carried off from the land as slaves, and may dogs consume his flesh. Can I use that as a warning to trolls on the board. Huh, huh? Can I? Please? ---
**Author:** ![Meltdown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Meltdown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meltdown)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-some-quibbles/339981/11 "2006-01-17T17:14:43Z")
I live in Franklin, Massachusetts (named for Ben) which claims to have “the first public library in the United States.” Their sign (a fuzzy picture of which appears [here](http://www.franklin.ma.us/auto/town/library/) ) proclaims that the library was established in 1786 (I think – I’m trying to read this off the picture – at any rate, before 1800), which if true, predates both the Peterborough and Boston Public Library mentioned in SDSTAFF Dex’s article. Any truth to this? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-some-quibbles/339981/12 "2006-01-17T17:21:25Z")
> [@Meltdown](#): > > I live in Franklin, Massachusetts (named for Ben) which claims to have “the first public library in the United States.” Their sign (a fuzzy picture of which appears [here](http://www.franklin.ma.us/auto/town/library/) ) proclaims that the library was established in 1786 (I think – I’m trying to read this off the picture – at any rate, before 1800), which if true, predates both the Peterborough and Boston Public Library mentioned in SDSTAFF Dex’s article. > > Any truth to this? My guess is that there’s truth to it, but it has much to do with the changing definition of “public library”. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-some-quibbles/339981/13 "2006-01-17T18:15:36Z")
Very good article. I would like to have seen more than an offhand reference to female librarians being hired to keep them subordinated to male professors. Also, unless the spelling has since changed, the town mentioned in the paragraph headed “2 - Circulating Libraries” should be spelled “Annapolis.” Well done, C K! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libraries-some-quibbles/339981/14 "2006-01-31T16:07:19Z")
Further indications of the “pop-culture” view of the novel ~ 1800: > [@Jane Austen (Northanger Abbey](#): > > “And what are you reading, Miss -?” “Oh, it is only a novel!” replies the young lady, while she lays down her book with affected indifference or momentary shame.-“It is only Cecilia or Camilla or Belinda”; or, in short, only some work in which the greatest powers of the mind are displayed, in which the most thorough knowledge of human nature, the happiest delineation of its varieties, the liveliest effusions of wit and humour, are conveyed to the world in the best-chosen language.