# Library Architects Who Forget About The Books **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 16, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/library-architects-who-forget-about-the-books/514046 "2009-10-16T16:30:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/library-architects-who-forget-about-the-books/514046/21 "2009-10-17T05:26:27Z")
Well the reason that Folsom Library resembles Boston City Hall is that both are Brutalist buildings. And as you said, much of the info in _Not The Rensselaer Handbook_ is deliberate BS. (I think there used to be a statement at the beginning denying that there was _anything_ factual in it.) But interestingly, the EMPAC building right next to Folsom Library “is secured by 215 cable anchors that reach deep into the hillside’s bedrock” so perhaps there is something to the idea that the library building is unstable. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/library-architects-who-forget-about-the-books/514046/22 "2009-10-17T08:15:52Z")
> [@](#): > > There were two blunders made when the Folsom Library was built. First, the building was originally designed with the floors bowed upwards, with the intent that the weight of the books would bow the floors back to level, and slightly stress the walls. … Of course\*\* the construction crew didn’t understand this concept\*\*, and the building was built with level floors, which are now bowed slightly downward with the weight of the books. > > Next, another architect calculated the necessary capacity for the foundation\*\* without realizing that the building was a library.\*\* my bs meter just flew off the scale… “The construction crew didnt’ understand”… HUH?? The hourly laborers aren’t even supposed to understand, and they don’t have to.But the ENGINEER in charge of the project sure as hell understands, and sure as hell checks that the reinforcing steel is put in place properly, and the concrete is tested properly, etc.etc… And before an archtitect (or, more like, a structural engineer) “caculates capacity for the foundation”, he first holds a _lot_ of meetings with the owners, to decide what basic design is required. How big will the building be, how many rooms inside (which determines how many columns and how far to space them apart, how many restrooms are required, how many parking spaces outside…So the architect would have to know that the building he is working on for 6 months or a year is a library. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/library-architects-who-forget-about-the-books/514046/23 "2009-10-17T09:25:25Z")
I heard this about Edinburgh University library, too. ---
**Author:** ![howye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9adbd/32.png) [@howye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/howye)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/library-architects-who-forget-about-the-books/514046/24 "2009-10-17T11:54:07Z")
I know of a counter example. My law school moved to a new building in the '90s. The building was actually a former insurance company office. A professor who was on the evaluation committee for the purchase of the building, told of having engineering studies done specifically to account for the weight of the books in the library. The structure was deemed good enough within limits, the library can’t use the top shelf in the stacks. A limitation the school live with because the building came cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/library-architects-who-forget-about-the-books/514046/25 "2009-10-17T12:47:46Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > I heard this about Edinburgh University library, too. I was coming in here to say that! At the time it sounded plausible because, IIRC, there was actually quite a lot of unused shelf space in places. This was in the early 90’s. The snow on the roof of the theatre one sounds a little more likely. At least, I have known of a local building (architect-designed, and not that old) to have its roof collapse after excessive rain. IANAArchitect though. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/library-architects-who-forget-about-the-books/514046/26 "2009-10-17T14:11:34Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > I think this myth arises because so many people grew with local libraries that had open stacks. They walk into the fancy new library, don’t see any books, and a legend is born. > > The fact is that many, if not most, very large collections (especially valuable collections) are closed: you look in the catalog for what you need, request your books from the desk, and determine which, if any, you need to check out. Getting a stack pass at these libraries is a big deal, and you usually need to be a well-established researcher to do so. Doubtful. Most people never find themselves walking into a library with closed stacks at all - some may walk into libraries with some closed stacks and not realize it. The vast majority of people will never, at this point, see a closed stack library. What’s funny is when you go in a library that USED to be closed stacks, and you can tell because when you get to where the books are the nice, airy library suddenly looks like a political prison behind the Iron Curtain. You can see them from the outside, too - if there’s two buildings, and one of them is very tall and institutional-ish, or if the building is mostly underground but not built recently. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/library-architects-who-forget-about-the-books/514046/27 "2009-10-17T16:44:01Z")
I’m impressed that this thread hasn’t turned into reflexive architect-bashing. In any case, I’ve heard this sort of myth so many times, it’s obvious it can only be a myth. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/library-architects-who-forget-about-the-books/514046/28 "2009-10-18T00:45:41Z")
> [@](#): > > The Widener Library stacks are open to all students, staff, and faculty (only the rare stuff is by request, plus all the stuff kept offsite because there’s not enough room…) The stacks themselves are along the “hole under the bottom shelf you can see the next floor through” lines; there’s a couple of places where I swear a well-aimed penny could fall from the 5th floor to the first subbasement. Whixch isn’t at all inconsistent with what I said. _I_ can’t get into the Widener stacks – I’m not associated with Harvard. I can get into the Reading room, but not the stacks. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/library-architects-who-forget-about-the-books/514046/29 "2009-10-18T01:43:22Z")
Reminds me of a removalist I met who told me that his pet hate was people who packed books in enormous boxes beside their bookcases and then expected them carried downstairs. He said he used to ask them, “Do you realize that the paper in those books was once a piece of a tree?” They usually worked out from there how filling the biggest box they could find may be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/library-architects-who-forget-about-the-books/514046/30 "2009-10-18T02:07:51Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > I think this myth arises because so many people grew with local libraries that had open stacks. They walk into the fancy new library, don’t see any books, and a legend is born. > > The fact is that many, if not most, very large collections (especially valuable collections) are closed: you look in the catalog for what you need, request your books from the desk, and determine which, if any, you need to check out. Getting a stack pass at these libraries is a big deal, and you usually need to be a well-established researcher to do so. As others have already pointed out, very few libraries today have closed stacks. I’m a librarian and I can’t think that I’ve ever even heard of a new library being build with closed stacks. I don’t doubt that there are _some_ new libraries with closed stacks, but there can’t be many. You could walk into the fancy new library where I work and not see (many) books because the books are mostly on floors 2-4. The first floor was designed to be primarily a study area. The reference collection and new books section are there, but it’s mostly the reference/circulation desk, seating, and computers. But our stacks aren’t closed, they’re just upstairs. You may be confused because some university libraries or libraries affiliated with other institutions don’t allow outside people access to the stacks. This was the case at one of the big libraries where I went to grad school. When you came in there was a small lobby area and you had to show ID or get a guest pass to go in to the main part of the library where the books were. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/library-architects-who-forget-about-the-books/514046/31 "2009-10-18T02:37:33Z")
The state library has closed stacks here, oddly. (Which is good for us because ILL is free from there and if it’s in their catalog it’s most likely actually there.) The funny thing is, the librarians there shelf-read all the time, and we almost never do. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/library-architects-who-forget-about-the-books/514046/32 "2009-10-18T08:02:39Z")
> [@Hakuna\_Matata](#): > > As an Architect I can assure you this is an urban legend. There is no way any competent Architect or Structural Engineer is going to forget the live or dead loading in a library or any structure. Underline mine. [This university](http://www.unavarra.es/indexe.htm) started from a handful of already-existing “facultades” (single-major colleges) and built a beautiful new campus, including a labs building. A beautiful labs building. All chrome and steel and glass and tiled floors, those labs. And not a single gas line, faucet, sealable hood or sink in sight :smack: Refitting the labs cost more than building them. I agree that a competent architect would never do such a thing. Sadly, every profession has its screwups. ---
**Author:** ![Sonnenstrahl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@Sonnenstrahl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonnenstrahl)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/library-architects-who-forget-about-the-books/514046/33 "2009-10-18T19:01:03Z")
I’ve heard it about the University of Waterloo. Now, on the other side of the coin, when I did research at the new-ish branch of the French National Library, the Bibliotheque Francois-Mitterand, I felt like they had forgotten about the humans. The library is four big L-shaped towers (supposed to look like open books) on a big wooden platform. The towers are covered in windows, but the blinds have to be closed at all times because they hold, well, books. Meanwhile the people are stuck in the basement, with windows opening onto a courtyard on only one side. I understand that that many books (almost entirely closed stack) can’t all be housed underground, but it seems a bit ironic that the books live aboveground and the people below. ---
**Author:** ![Fir\_na\_tine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fir\_na\_tine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fir_na_tine)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/library-architects-who-forget-about-the-books/514046/34 "2009-10-19T02:01:42Z")
> [@Hodge](#): > > I can’t speak for how things were designed several decades ago, but for as long as I’ve been in the business (since the mid-90s) soil quality has always been taken into account by the structural engineer. > > Fill is definitely the worst soil to design for and I know a few engineers who’ll pass on a project if the soil is too lousy. . Our local grammar school was built in mid 60’s and is slowly sinking. Built on poorly compacted fill, soils testing waived to save the cost, local politician acted as Clerk of the Works and building is fairly close to Interstate Highway vibrations. Drop a ball in the school gym/cafeteria and it will roll rapidly to the NE corner which is now some 10 or 11 inches lower than the SW corner. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/library-architects-who-forget-about-the-books/514046/35 "2009-10-19T02:01:47Z")
I can say that I visited UMass around 1980 and the library was roped off at a great distance and surrounded with sandbags and tires and whatnot because (I was told) masonry and the occasional window was popping out of it. I wasn’t given the “weight of the books” variation, I was just told it was built badly on a bad site. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/library-architects-who-forget-about-the-books/514046.md?page=1)