# Libya after Gaddafi? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541 "2011-07-10T20:32:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/81 "2011-08-29T21:25:59Z")
[Khamis Gaddafi confirmed dead,](http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/rebels-confirm-gaddafi-son-khamis-is-dead-20110830-1jiwn.html) yet again, but apparently for real this time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/82 "2011-09-04T23:36:37Z")
This is interesting: Under Gaddafi, the nominal political structure was: 1. At the base, small town-meeting units called [Basic People’s Congresses.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_People%27s_Congress_(political)) 2. 22 [District](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Districts_of_Libya) Congresses. 3. The [General People’s Congress,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_People%27s_Congress_(Libya)) 2,700 representatives of the Basic People’s Congresses. It would all be very democratic, if it were not all a sham controlled by Gaddafi . . . And now it no longer is. If the NTC wants to keep Gaddafi-era institutions in place so far as possible and acceptable, maybe they should look at these. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/83 "2011-10-04T14:40:23Z")
[Jibril promises to resign from government as soon as the war ends.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/10/2011103124138235256.html) Hm. OK, so if this revolution produces any new strongman I guess it won’t be him. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/84 "2011-10-20T22:37:27Z")
Sooooo . . . ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/85 "2011-10-20T22:50:43Z")
So now religious zealots will battle it out with everyone else. Part of the reason why he was so unpopular is because he wasn’t observant enough. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/86 "2011-10-20T23:32:00Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > So now religious zealots will battle it out with everyone else. What makes you think that? ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/87 "2011-10-20T23:40:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What makes you think that? Recent history dictates that there’s a very good chance that the country will be embroiled in war between different religious factions/military groups for a few years. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/88 "2011-10-21T12:19:55Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Recent history dictates . . . How? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/89 "2011-10-23T15:18:45Z")
[Jibril announces he’s stepping down, promises elections to a constituent assembly within 8 months.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/10/201110235316778897.html) ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/90 "2011-10-23T16:08:15Z")
Are you Just Asking Questions or are you serious? You keep making all these threads about the Arab Spring but are ignoring the religious undertones in them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/91 "2011-10-24T00:45:59Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Are you Just Asking Questions or are you serious? You keep making all these threads about the Arab Spring but are ignoring the religious undertones in them. No, I see them clearly enough, but that’s just what they are, **undertones.** These are **not** Islamist revolutions. Of course the Islamist groups are part of them, but I haven’t heard a lot about slogans like “Down with Gaddafi the enemy of Islam!” or “Long live the Islamic Republic!” or such. And, remember, saying that a country’s post-Spring constitution and laws should be based on Shari’a, well, in context it’s really an “In God We Trust” kinda thing with some mild Blue Laws added, it doesn’t mean judges will be ordering mutilations or stonings or making infidels wear colored armbands. Nor does it mean a jihad. Even the Islamists in this countries understand the importance, now, of keeping the Western countries friendly. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/92 "2011-10-24T02:06:33Z")
Well they announced Sharia Law compliance so the flavor of the day has been decided before any real thought goes into elections. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/93 "2011-10-24T03:40:35Z")
> [@](#): > > This week Mustafa Abdul Jalil, chairman of the governing National Transitional Council, announced before cheering crowds in Tripoli’s Martyrs’ Square that “women will be ambassadors, women will be ministers”. > **[Libyan women: it's our revolution too](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/sep/16/libyan-women-our-revolution-too)** > > Women played a crucial role in overthrowing Gaddafi and yet the National Transitional Council has only one female in post > [@](#): > > And he laid out a vision for the post-Gadhafi future with an Islamist tint, saying Islamic Sharia law would be the “basic source” of legislation and existing laws that contradict the teachings of Islam would be nullified. [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45004684/ns/world\_news-mideast\_n\_africa/#.TqTb8bL3KCU](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45004684/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/#.TqTb8bL3KCU) While I know under no circumstance is this a sure thing, but with only one woman on the NTC I think those women who fought for freedom, are going to lose it. The hints of religion as stated above looks to be coming out of the closet. > [@](#): > > “I’m not at all worried,” said Molly Tarhuni, an independent analyst in Benghazi who is studying the rebel movement. > > “This is so temporary and transitional. I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s microcosmic of what will happen in the future. I think women are going to play an immense role.” [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/20/world/africa/20benghazi.html?\_r=1](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/20/world/africa/20benghazi.html?_r=1) Oops ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/94 "2011-10-24T05:07:49Z")
It’s always fun to watch people role-play though I really wish the trolls would do a little research so they don’t make mistakes in terminology and expose themselves as frauds who pretend to be something they’re not. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/95 "2011-10-24T05:13:11Z")
In and of itself, the promises to uphold Shariah law don’t mean much. Shariah law means many things to many people —I really doubt that “Women were given too much freedom!” is the subtext of a speech whose content also includes a promise to put women in the Cabinet. Also, keep in mind that more or less the entire audience of the speech _is Muslim_, as is almost everybody on the side that just lost the war; accusations of impiety would be the default method of accusing your opposition of behaving wrongly in any way, not just in social policy. An equivalent would be how politically-liberal American Christians sometimes accuse their conservative brethren of pursuing an ungodly policy because the conservative policy excludes the poor; we do not immediately then assume that the liberal Christians want to turn the US into a theocracy! ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/96 "2011-10-24T05:37:56Z")
Actually, let me go a bit further —since one or another of you will undoubtedly read the news sometime soon and discover that Tunisia [had its very first free election yesterday](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15425407) (open to both genders, BTW), and you’ll probably then notice that a moderate Islamist party won (AFAIK, the ballots are still being counted). The story demonstrates two things. First, moderate Islamist parties can win free elections in North Africa. Second, free elections can happen in North Africa now. So I ask you: does it really make sense for the former to outweigh the latter? Were women really better off under (not-necessarily-socially-liberal) dictatorships than they are likely to be under marginally more conservative but (potentially drastically) less oppressive regimes? Are we _really_ so scared about what will happen in terms of women’s rights that we’re willing to overlook the torture, murder, and economic injustices that took place under the old regimes? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/97 "2011-10-24T05:39:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It’s always fun to watch people role-play though I really wish the trolls would do a little research so they don’t make mistakes in terminology and expose themselves as frauds who pretend to be something they’re not. You have been told before that you can’t call other posters trolls in this forum. This is a formal warning: don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/98 "2011-10-24T06:51:17Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > In and of itself, the promises to uphold Shariah law don’t mean much. Shariah law means many things to many people —I really doubt that “Women were given too much freedom!” is the subtext of a speech whose content also includes a promise to put women in the Cabinet. Notice the dates on the news articles what he said today, does not register with actions and words in the past of his. If no constitution is written as of yet, to lay the groundwork without discussion sure seems a lot less than democracy right out of the gates. He has laid the rules out, it will be based on Sharia law, to what degree\* is yet to be seen. I for one, cannot condone using our forces to replace a brutal dictator with another form of abusive government. I hope you’re right though! \*Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Pakistan and Afghanistan under the Taliban are just some of the nations that have or do use/used some degree of Sharia. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/99 "2011-10-24T11:56:54Z")
Is it really any different than European countries having some existing laws they created based on Christian jurisprudence and Roman law? I think this is the problem with the way in which we in the west view this, obviously it’s an Islamic country and in this regard some forms of Sharia are going to be implemented because it’s willed by the majority of the society to have that in law. In fact, I think this is a good thing that Mustafa Abdul Jalil declared this, by doing so, he could co-opt a few of the Islamists who have fought against Gaddafi into being part of the new system of government being set up, thus satisfying some of the demands that they fought for, also take note, in Gaddafis Libya, Sharia was implemented anyway, so it won’t make much difference in accordance to whats happening now since he’s been overthrown. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541/100 "2011-10-24T12:18:48Z")
> [@RyJae](#): > > I for one, cannot condone using our forces to replace a brutal dictator with another form of abusive government. I hope you’re right though! You just **now** conceived a distaste for that American SOP?! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-after-gaddafi/588541.md?page=6)