# Libya and Obama; it's the last straw for me **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212 "2011-03-19T00:40:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/221 "2011-03-22T14:57:18Z")
Let me make it clear that I think Obama is doing the right thing, right now. I’m not too eager to hang the man for his past words, even though there’s obviously a bit of schadenfreude in seeing President Obama hamstrung by Candidate Obama’s criticisms of the then-President. But the real question is: is he right, right now? Do we want to make it easy, or hard, for him to do the right thing right now? If the political cost of doing the right thing is too high, then perhaps he won’t do it, and that doesn’t seem like one of those win-win dealies, does it? As a candidate, or as a senator from a relatively liberal state with a power base in a VERY liberal city, Obama may have taken some positions he now sees were short-sighted. Let him change his mind without slaughtering him. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/222 "2011-03-22T15:01:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not that I’m aware of. I welcome correction on the point. Me too. > [@Oakminster](#): > > Costs are mounting. A quick google of dubious accuracy suggests tomahawk missiles cost about $500K each for the newer models, over a million for the older ones, and I think we’ve fired around 150 missiles so far. Plus the cost of the crashed fighter. Coalition forces have launched 150 cruise missiles _combined_. Most were launched by British submarines, as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/223 "2011-03-22T15:23:24Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] As a candidate, or as a senator from a relatively liberal state with a power base in a VERY liberal city, Obama may have taken some positions he now sees were short-sighted. Let him change his mind without slaughtering him. [/QUOTE] Which is fine, as long as he makes it clear that he has indeed changed his mind. If he and his supporters say, “I was wrong about Bush’s authority under the Constitution” that’s one thing. If he says “it’s OK for me” and then changes the subject, that’s something else. > [@Bricker](#): > > But the real question is: is he right, right now? As far as I am concerned, that is still an open question. Because I still have not heard answers to the questions (I thought) we all agreed needed to be asked. There is also such a thing as doing something stupid for all the right reasons. I have heard people define the invasion of Iraq that way. As I mentioned above, ISTM that Obama is reacting. He has (as far as I know) no idea of what exactly he wants to accomplish, and how to tell when and if he has accomplished it. If he is just delaying the inevitable defeat of the rebels, then he is an idiot, who is putting our people in harm’s way for no valid reason. Now they are widening the no-fly zone. Next it will be “we will give air cover to the rebels so they can take this one city.” And then to hold the city. And then the next city. And so on. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/224 "2011-03-22T15:30:36Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Are you deliberately misreading my posts? Those differences are irrelevant. They don’t matter. We are attacking another nation for no good reason. That’s what matters. If there was any misreading, it was unintentional, I assure you. When you stated:_“I see no qualitative difference between then and now. None.”_ I took you at your word and laid out some substantial qualitative differences. When you also said: _“Both are unwarranted interferences in the affairs of a sovereign nation for no better reason than that we don’t care for its leader.”_ I provided a reason far better than, “we don’t care for its leader,” which was: _“There is a war going on in Libya. A war that not only threatens the lives of tens of thousands (or more) of innocent civilians, but a war that threatens to destabilize an entire region that is teetering on very shaky political ground right now. . . The region is delving into instability. The Arab League wants Western help in preventing that from happening in those areas where they can’t handle it themselves.”_ I don’t have a problem if you simply disagree that that’s a strong enough reason to engage our military forces. But it’s disingenuous to first claim there are no qualitative differences, then accuse me of deliberately misreading your posts when I provide several, while then dismissing those differences as irrelevant to you. There is a good reason for what we’re doing in Libya. It’s been spelled out to you. You are free to disagree that those reasons are _sufficiently_ good in your opinion. But to repeatedly say there is _no_ reason, or no _good_ reason to be doing this is, well, less than I’ve come to expect from you, Frank. I understand why you’re so upset by this. I don’t _like_ it, either. But we can at least have an honest conversation about it, don’t you think? > [@Oakminster](#): > > Well, we’ve [lost a fighter](http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/22/libya.civil.war/index.html?hpt=T1). This was an F-15E, which is a ground attack variant of the F-15 series of aircraft. Regular F-15s are called Eagles, and back when I was in the Air Force, the F-15E was sometimes called the “Mud Hen”. > > Fortunately, both aircrew on board ejected, and are out of Libya now. > > Costs are mounting. A quick google of dubious accuracy suggests tomahawk missiles cost about $500K each for the newer models, over a million for the older ones, and I think we’ve fired around 150 missiles so far. Plus the cost of the crashed fighter. I don’t expect everyone to agree with this, particularly when our country is already mired in enormous debt, but I think that’s _financially_ a small price to have paid for the incredible good will we are getting in return. \*"One of the airmen landed in a field and approached a crowd of people, not knowing whether they were supporters of Moammar Gadhafi or members of the opposition, Britain’s Daily Telegraph reported. "It turned out they were locals who opposed the Libyan leader, the paper said. “I hugged him and said, ‘Don’t be scared, we are your friends,’” witness Younis Amruni told the Telegraph. "Locals reportedly lined up to shake the airman’s hands in thanks. ““We are so grateful to these men who are protecting the skies,” Amruni said. “We gave him juice and then the revolutionary military people took him away.””\* [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42206805/ns/world\_news-mideastn\_africa/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42206805/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/225 "2011-03-22T15:52:57Z")
Quote: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by The\_Peyote\_Coyote > > If Bricker and Starving Artist support a policy, that’s reason enough to seriously question it. > > You’ve been around Straight Dope for how long? And yet you managed to utterly miss the entire point of not only its existence, but the reason we’re all here participating in debates! > > Either we’re here to suss out the “straight dope” and hope to sway others to the truth of our opinions, or we just want an echo chamber where our debate opponents are always wrong, even when they agree with us. > > Bricker and Starving Artist are two of my least favorite posters here, but for reasons entirely different from their willingness to acknowledge when “our” side is right. For that reason, they tend to stand alone among the crowd of conservatives around here, because they at least occasionally listen to our arguments and come to agree with us. For that they have my admiration. That they earn your scorn for that is obscene. To paraphrase Cecil, if sanctimonious stupidity were cornflakes, you would put General Mills out of business. The real world isn’t a goddamn debating society; actions have consequences and the consequences of Libyan intervention will be serious. When people I have found to be consistently wrong advocate a policy, you’re fuckin’ A right I question my support for it or whether I should support it. If you had the sense of a block of sandstone, you would be questioning why you’re siding with Republicans and Faux News. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/226 "2011-03-22T16:03:35Z")
Quote: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by The\_Peyote\_Coyote > We have no idea whether the rebels will establish a real democracy or just install another boss who might be worse than Gaddhaffi. > > Worse than Ghaddafi? Anyone that’s not a complete cross-dressing nutjob and abject terrorist would be an improvement! FoieGrasIsEvil: Yes, we could get someone who is just as evil and considerably more competent. We could get a Taliban. We could get fanatics who think it’s peachy to stone women for death for adultery and execute anyone who professes a faith other than Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/227 "2011-03-22T16:06:23Z")
> [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > stupidity were cornflakes, you would put General Mills out of business. The real world isn’t a goddamn debating society; actions have consequences and the consequences of Libyan intervention will be serious. When people I have found to be consistently wrong advocate a policy, you’re fuckin’ A right I question my support for it or whether I should support it. If you had the sense of a block of sandstone, you would be questioning why you’re siding with Republicans and Faux News. So if you had to put a percentage figure on it, about how important is it that the right people take an action for you to support it? 80? 90? When you criticize an action as wrong, how much of your decision is based on the factor that the wrong people took the action? It seems to me that your post above is a fairly blatant admission that what counts for you is not the merits of any particular policy, but rather who’s pushing it. But perhaps I read that wrong. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/228 "2011-03-22T16:07:05Z")
> [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > The real world isn’t a goddamn debating society; actions have consequences and the consequences of Libyan intervention will be serious. When people I have found to be consistently wrong advocate a policy, you’re fuckin’ A right I question my support for it or whether I should support it. If you had the sense of a block of sandstone, you would be questioning why you’re siding with Republicans and Faux News. Right… I guess it’s clear from your posts that **Shayna** has neither dug into any of the facts, nor reconsidered her immediate gut reaction nor sought conflicting opinion, while you’ve put in lots of time on the problem, eventually condensing your thought process into a complex but largely infallible algorithm. You my new role model for thoughtful policy analysis, **PC**. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/229 "2011-03-22T16:08:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Coalition forces have launched 150 cruise missiles _combined_. Most were launched by British submarines, as far as I can tell. No. A few were launched by the British, but most were US. We’re also in charge of operation right now. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/230 "2011-03-22T16:11:59Z")
As for some of the consequences I’ve mentioned: If this is a civil war, as it appears, then that means a considerable portion of the population supports Gaddhaffi. What are our fearless interventionists going to when those people arise against the rebels? How is that going to contribute to the stability of the region? What kind of government are those rebels going to install? How trustworthy are their leaders? Thus far I’ve seen or heard nothing on this board or the networks about this. If someone has some information, I would be grateful if they would post it. As Oakminister has related, we’ve already lost a plane and, regardless of how many we’ve fired, those missiles aren’t cheap. How are we going to pay for this? If I were Gaddhaffi, I would simply go to ground in the areas loyal to me, hide my tanks and planes, spread out my troops among the civilian population, put out as much propaganda as I can, and wait for the Western nations to pull out. Do you interventionists have an answer for this? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/231 "2011-03-22T16:13:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As a candidate, or as a senator from a relatively liberal state with a power base in a VERY liberal city, Obama may have taken some positions he now sees were short-sighted. Let him change his mind without slaughtering him. Oh, please. He could have gone to Congress and gotten authority to do this. He was speaking on principal before, and nothing has changed since then. Nothing. His problem is that he really didn’t want to do this, but changed his mind at the last minute and it was too late to go to Congress. That’s no good reason to change your mind about what the constitution says. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/232 "2011-03-22T16:13:54Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] No. A few were launched by the British, but most were US. We’re also in charge of operation right now. [/QUOTE] Figures. Last report I saw said we were doing about half of all of the sorties (though they said that the number of air missions was dropping at that point and should continue to drop as things wind down). -XT ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/233 "2011-03-22T16:14:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If he and his supporters say, “I was wrong about Bush’s authority under the Constitution” that’s one thing. If he says “it’s OK for me” and then changes the subject, that’s something else. Obama has effectively said that. He’s adopted and expanded on all the executive powers that Bush claimed for himself. Dennis Kucinich has made noise about impeaching him for usurping Congress’ power to authorize military action (which would be a legitimate reason for impeachment in my eyes; doesn’t Congress care about maintaining control of their enumerated powers?), but I foresee all the DC insiders rolling their eyes and blowing him off. Most people there seem to like the idea of the dominant executive. I can’t recall where I read it, but someone drew a parallel between Obama legitimizing all the Bush-era executive overreach and the way Eisenhower and subsequent presidents made all the FDR-era welfare programs a permanent part of our government. Unless Congress pushes back, future presidents will have no reason to feel constrained in their ability to send our military off on adventures. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/234 "2011-03-22T16:17:53Z")
Bricker, I don’t give a flying fuck what percentage of the population supports a proposition. What matters to me is the rightness of a proposition. As Anatole France said: “A foolish thing remains a foolish thing even if 50 million people support it.” In my previous post, I posted a list of questions. When you, Shayna, elucidator, xeonophon41, and the other interventionists can give me some solid answers to those, then I will reconsider my position. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/235 "2011-03-22T16:18:08Z")
> [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > To paraphrase Cecil, if sanctimonious stupidity were cornflakes, you would put General Mills out of business. The real world isn’t a goddamn debating society; actions have consequences and the consequences of Libyan intervention will be serious. When people I have found to be consistently wrong advocate a policy, you’re fuckin’ A right I question my support for it or whether I should support it. If you had the sense of a block of sandstone, you would be questioning why you’re siding with Republicans and Faux News. I’m siding with the President. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/236 "2011-03-22T16:22:38Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Right… I guess it’s clear from your posts that **Shayna** has neither dug into any of the facts, nor reconsidered her immediate gut reaction nor sought conflicting opinion, while you’ve put in lots of time on the problem, eventually condensing your thought process into a complex but largely infallible algorithm. > > You my new role model for thoughtful policy analysis, **PC**. Have I told you lately how much I love you? 🆒 +1 imaginary Rep point. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/237 "2011-03-22T16:25:23Z")
If Congress hasn’t authorized this action, then I agree that Obama should be held to the statement **flickster** quoted (though I think it’s implied that he could use force in defense of US allies as well as just the US). As far as whether US involvement is a good thing in general, I’m not sure how I feel about that. I do think it would make us look rather hypocritical if we didn’t get involved. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/238 "2011-03-22T16:33:54Z")
This was from an interview on Hardball yesterday: > [@](#): > > Matthews: What is going on in the war? Are we going after Qaddafi? What are we doing in this war, do we know? > > Richard Engle: The rebels here think we have given them unconditional military support. Their only strategy seems to be allow the US and other military powers to scorch the earth and destroy Qaddafi’s military so that they can make a very slow advance toward Tripoli. > > They do see a humanitarian element to this because if Qaddafi’s forces had been allowed to enter Benghazi or Tobruk there very likely would have been massacres, but now they think this rebel movement which has been leaderless and disorganized believes it has has been recognized and given the full support of the United States military. > > Matthews: Are we giving arms of any kind? Small arms, artillery,armor, what are we giving to the rebels. Anything? > > Engle: I have seen no evidence that we are giving the rebels anything. They seem to be holding the weapons that they seized from the units of Qaddafi that were destroyed by the Americans. Sometimes they’re armed with just pocket knives… > > The rebels are in two groups. There are the volunteers, they seem to be a little bit braver, they’re the ones heading out to the front lines. They’re not having a lot of success. That’s one group. The other are the divisions of the army, formerly Qaddafi’s army, that defected. And they are not really doing much of anything. > > In Tobruk today, we went to the main army command to talk to one of the top generals here who had supposedly joined the rebellion. He was at home today and had taken the day off. Couple the lack of an identified rebel leader with the fact that the Arab League asked for western support, then got upset when we actually started bombing stuff on the ground (the nerve of our military!), and I can’t stop doing this :smack: :smack: :smack:. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/239 "2011-03-22T16:40:35Z")
Thank you for an informative post, MOIDALIZE. I think that within a short order of time, I and a few others are going to be telling the rest of the Dopers “I told you so.” And, Shayna, Les McCann said it better than I ever could: _“The President, he’s got his war; folks don’t know exactly what it’s for. Nobody gives us a rhyme or reason; have one doubt and they call it treason. We always end up in a rut, tryin’ to make it real compared to what?”_ ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/240 "2011-03-22T16:40:53Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > No. I only drew the distinction between the fact that there’s an ongoing war in Libya where there was not in Iraq, in response to Frank’s allegation that the two situations are qualitatively the same. Understood. Thx. > [@Bricker](#): > > As a candidate, or as a senator from a relatively liberal state with a power base in a VERY liberal city, Obama may have taken some positions he now sees were short-sighted. Let him change his mind without slaughtering him. Well, if one isn’t inclined to support the administration’s current policy, the alternative formulation of his having changed his mind is “power corrupts.” > [@Shayna](#): > > I don’t expect everyone to agree with this, particularly when our country is already mired in enormous debt, but I think that’s _financially_ a small price to have paid for the incredible good will we are getting in return. My concern is whether this goodwill can last. Sooner or later we’re going to send an accidental cruise missile into a Bedouin wedding party, and we may find ourselves right back to being the ugly Americans. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > His problem is that he really didn’t want to do this, but changed his mind at the last minute and it was too late to go to Congress. And yet there was time to get a UN resolution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=13)