# Libya and Obama; it's the last straw for me **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212 "2011-03-19T00:40:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/341 "2011-03-23T03:02:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I can’t imagine why it should make a difference, but have you any recollection of just how many civil wars we have intervened in? And how frequently for the side of the oppressors? Are you proposing that we are working on evening the scales? Wouldn’t it be better to propose that we no longer intervene in civil wars? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/342 "2011-03-23T03:07:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > When he says what the goals are, what America will do, what America will not do, he’s lying? Wouldn’t be a shocker. Like any other president he lies about all sorts of things, all the time, for his own inscrutable reasons. > [@](#): > > He’s a secret neo-con, bent on establishing American hegemony throughout the Middle East? Neo-cons are not the first American policy makers to show an interest in Middle East hegemony, or anywhere else for that matter. American planners, Congressmen, presidents, journalists, and dog catchers have been obsessed with it since WWII, if not earlier. But you knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/343 "2011-03-23T03:08:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > A lot has transpired here since my lost post. > > At any rate, now that we have an understanding of what the War Powers Resolution says, I’d like some of you pro-intervention folks to explain how you justify this action. How does it meet any of the 3 criteria listed. It doesn’t. But my position is that the War Powers’ Act, to the extent that it restricts the President’s exercise of his Art. II powers as C-in-C, is unconstitutional. > [@](#): > > Then, I’d like to understand when we know that the No Fly Zone is no longer needed. > > Then, I’d like to know what we do when both sides are slaughtering each other in close combat in the urban areas. > > Then I’d like to know what we do to maintain order after this mess is over, assuming in the off chance that there is any order to maintain. I don’t know. But This does not mean that Obama doesn’t know. It merely means that the President has failed to invite me to the Oval Office to share his planning sessions – an oversight, to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/344 "2011-03-23T03:10:33Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > No, I do not. It is irrelevant that you do not like this action; you have, in fact, been an apologist for it. You show yourself as a pussy. A dishonest, reprehensible one, no less. And a goddamn _stupid_ one, to boot. _Explaining_ something isn’t even remotely the same as being an _apologist_ for it. But you don’t give a shit. You’re just hell-bent on spewing your self-righteous, vitriolic anger, regardless of the facts, and regardless of how people attempt to engage you. You are no longer deserving of even a modicum of respect. In fact, you have earned my contempt. Not that you care, I’m sure. But there it is. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/345 "2011-03-23T03:18:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It doesn’t. > > But my position is that the War Powers’ Act, to the extent that it restricts the President’s exercise of his Art. II powers as C-in-C, is unconstitutional. So, you think a president should just ignore any act of Congress the he thinks is unconstitutional. Are you sure you want to go down that path? I think the proper way to approach this is that acts of Congress are consider constitutional until and unless the SCOTUS declares them not so. Otherwise, we are not a nation of laws. > [@](#): > > I don’t know. > > But This does not mean that Obama doesn’t know. It merely means that the President has failed to invite me to the Oval Office to share his planning sessions – an oversight, to be sure. The president should be able to articulate to the American people what our goals are and what, exactly, we are trying to accomplish when he takes military action. He doesn’t need to invite you, personally, into the Oval Office in order to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/346 "2011-03-23T03:25:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Because they are human, because they cry out to us for help, and because no man is an island. OK, I’m Donne here… I see what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/347 "2011-03-23T03:28:52Z")
> [@](#): > > …The president should be able to articulate to the American people what our goals are and what, exactly, we are trying to accomplish when he takes military action… He did. I heard him. If he sticks to what he said, I’m OK with it. If he tries to pull some shit, like suddenly we need a couple of armored divisions to protect our embassy, or an airfield, I will be totally pissed. But I figure I oughta at least wait for the crime to be commited before I start writing the indictment. Your way saves time, sure, but still… ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/348 "2011-03-23T03:39:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The president should be able to articulate to the American people what our goals are and what, exactly, we are trying to accomplish when he takes military action. He doesn’t need to invite you, personally, into the Oval Office in order to do that. \ ***Barack Obama:**"Now, here is why this matters to us. Left unchecked, we have every reason to believe that Qaddafi would commit atrocities against his people. Many thousands could die. A humanitarian crisis would ensue. The entire region could be destabilized, endangering many of our allies and partners. The calls of the Libyan people for help would go unanswered. The democratic values that we stand for would be overrun. Moreover, the words of the international community would be rendered hollow. "And that’s why the United States has worked with our allies and partners to shape a strong international response at the United Nations. **Our focus has been clear: protecting innocent civilians within Libya, and holding the Qaddafi regime accountable.** \* [http://blogs.state.gov/index.php/site/entry/2011\_0318\_potus\_libya/](http://blogs.state.gov/index.php/site/entry/2011_0318_potus_libya/) I’m not sure what you consider vague about this. I think he articulated our goals quit succinctly. We are participating to ensure the safety of **innocent civilians** from **Moammar Qaddafi** , and to ensure the region does not become destabilized and endanger our allies and partners due to Qaddafi’s actions. So once Qaddafi has been rendered powerless to “show no mercy and no pity” to his citizens, Job Done. If the citizenry breaks out into a civil war between themselves after that, well, we’ll have to discuss next steps, _then_. But _this_ mission is quite clear. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/349 "2011-03-23T03:57:15Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > \ ***Barack Obama:**"Now, here is why this matters to us. Left unchecked, we have every reason to believe that Qaddafi would commit atrocities against his people. Many thousands could die. A humanitarian crisis would ensue. The entire region could be destabilized, endangering many of our allies and partners. The calls of the Libyan people for help would go unanswered. The democratic values that we stand for would be overrun. Moreover, the words of the international community would be rendered hollow. > > "And that’s why the United States has worked with our allies and partners to shape a strong international response at the United Nations. **Our focus has been clear: protecting innocent civilians within Libya, and holding the Qaddafi regime accountable.** \* > > [http://blogs.state.gov/index.php/site/entry/2011\_0318\_potus\_libya/](http://blogs.state.gov/index.php/site/entry/2011_0318_potus_libya/) I’m not sure what you consider vague about this. I think he articulated our goals quit succinctly. We are participating to ensure the safety of **innocent civilians** from **Moammar Qaddafi** , and to ensure the region does not become destabilized and endanger our allies and partners due to Qaddafi’s actions. > > So once Qaddafi has been rendered powerless to “show no mercy and no pity” to his citizens, Job Done. If the citizenry breaks out into a civil war between themselves after that, well, we’ll have to discuss next steps, _then_. But _this_ mission is quite clear. Well, you sure went quickly from “I don’t know” to suddenly you do know. But maybe you read some more. Still, basically you are saying there is no plan beyond tomorrow. That’s not how to use military action. That’s what Bush would do. That’s going in blind and hoping for the best. That’s exactly how we get drawn into quagmires like Vietnam and Iraq. Still, I’d like you to address the issue of ignoring a law because you think it’s unconstitutional. How does that work as a general principal? We all get to decide which laws the president can ignore or is it only you who can do that? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/350 "2011-03-23T04:01:51Z")
Well, what’s the plan, **John**? He’s lying, ok, he’s lying. To what end? I don’t see what he has to gain by this, but if you do, why don’t you tell us? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/351 "2011-03-23T04:01:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > He did. I heard him. If he sticks to what he said, I’m OK with it. If he tries to pull some shit, like suddenly we need a couple of armored divisions to protect our embassy, or an airfield, I will be totally pissed. But I figure I oughta at least wait for the crime to be commited before I start writing the indictment. Your way saves time, sure, but still… OK I can sort of accept that, and I do believe you will switch sides if this escalates. But let’s be clear about one thing: the crime (violating the War Powers Act) has already been committed. The Rubicon has been crossed. You may excuse him for doing that, but I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/352 "2011-03-23T04:12:08Z")
The air strikes may be achieving only a mixed amount of success. The Washington Post is [reporting](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-jet-crashes-in-libya-pilots-safe-gates-says-air-strikes-should-slow-soon/2011/03/22/ABNC0lCB_story.html?hpid=z1) as follows: [QUOTE=Washington Post] Four days of allied strikes have battered Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi’s air force and largely destroyed his long-range air defense systems, a top U.S. commander said Tuesday. But there was little evidence that the attacks had stopped regime forces from killing civilians or shifted the balance of power in favor of the rebels. [/QUOTE] (Note: That URL leads to a story that looks like it has been evolving over the course of the day, so it may keep changing or may become a bad link). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/353 "2011-03-23T04:42:58Z")
I mean, even when the guy says it right out, clear, and in words of one syllable… “I’m going to build a treehouse in the back, and paint it blue.” Three days later… “…Well, Greta, the President promised to build a geodesic dome over the White House grounds, but many Americans are deeply disappointed to learn that he is just putzing around in a tree with some boards…” ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/354 "2011-03-23T05:15:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We all get to decide which laws the president can ignore or is it only you who can do that? What is this, a dick-waving contest? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/355 "2011-03-23T05:29:38Z")
Well, since I don’t have a dick, I’ll wave [this guy’s](http://jurist.org/forum/2011/03/the-president-does-not-need-congressional-approval-for-libya-no-fly-zone-yet.php): JURIST Contributing Editor Michael J. Kelly, Professor of Law and Associate Dean for Faculty Research and International Programs at Creighton University School of Law says that, for now, President Obama has the legal authority to commit U.S. military forces to establish the no-fly zone over Libya… **The President Does Not Need Congressional Approval for Libya No-Fly Zone (Yet)** . . . " **Under the WPR, the President may commit U.S. forces into armed hostilities, but must advise Congress within 48 hours that he has done so.** This report must explain the circumstances necessitating the deployment, the legal authority he is relying on, and the estimated scope and duration of hostilities. A 60-day clock then begins ticking, at the end of which the president must terminate his military action unless (1) Congress has specifically authorized it, (2) Congress has extended the 60 days, or (3) Congress is physically unable to meet due to an attack on the U.S. But the President may extend the 60 days by another 30 days if he certifies to Congress that he cannot safely remove U.S. forces from combat without that additional time. “\*\*Thus, an American president operating under the WPR, basically has 92 days total to get his military business done abroad without specific Congressional authorization. \*\*That said, Congress reserves the right to itself to pull the plug on any executive military adventures by concurrent resolution at any time. However, no Congress has never done this and it is unlikely that any would. President Reagan duly reported his engagement with Libya to Congress. **Likewise, President Obama duly reported his own engagement with Libya to Congress.** ” . . . There you go. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/356 "2011-03-23T05:44:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, you sure went quickly from “I don’t know” to suddenly you do know. But maybe you read some more. You know, I’d like to address this allegation, as well. Will you please point out for me, where I ever said I didn’t know why we were engaging in military action in Libya. You seem to be flinging another insult at me here and I’d like to know from whence that allegation came. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/357 "2011-03-23T09:33:31Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Explaining\* something isn’t even remotely the same as being an _apologist_ for it. You’ve made 30 posts in this thread ‘explaining’ and defending and supporting Obama’s action. Judging from this post, I think the strain of being an apologist for something you–in your heart–know is wrong must be getting to you. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/358 "2011-03-23T10:46:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What “further actions?” Have the Marines landed in Tripoli? Next: The halls of Montezuma! Buckle up, Mexico. > [@Frank](#): > > Genocide. A la Clinton’s intervention under U.N. auspices in the former Yugoslavia. > > Harboring and defending terrorists who have attacked us. A la Bush the Younger’s immediate attack on Afghanistan when they refused to give the terrorists responsible for 9-11 up for trial. > > An attack on the territory of the United States. A la Pearl Harbor. > > Not a civil war. We didn’t intervene in Afghanistan’s civil war. Nor Uganda’s. Nor Sri Lanka’s. Nor any other of the many civil wars that have occurred in the past couple of decades. All of which caused civilian casualties. > > I thought I made that clear in the OP. But nothing based on common humanity, or on furthering the goals of democracy that are the foundation of our own system and our own rhetoric and our own history, mixed as it is with actions counter to it. But let’s just stick with our being human; that’s enough here. You might also claim, as other posters have inferred, that yes, this is a civil war - that would fit your ad hoc list of reasons, wouldn’t it? What you stated is your own opinion about what our business should not be, based on defining this action as being not it, and presenting it as an obvious fact. You can be just a little more intellectually honest than that, can’t you? There’s a good lad. Now get a fucking grip, buddy. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/359 "2011-03-23T12:08:46Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The air strikes may be achieving only a mixed amount of success. Well, it’s only the first phase. Much more likely than not, once anti air emplacements are knocked out and we rule the skies, we can send in aircraft on ground attack missions and start dealing with Quadaffi’s armor columns. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/360 "2011-03-23T12:49:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, you think a president should just ignore any act of Congress the he thinks is unconstitutional. Are you sure you want to go down that path? I think the proper way to approach this is that acts of Congress are consider constitutional until and unless the SCOTUS declares them not so. That’s certainly the presumption that a citizen faces when challenging an act of Congress. But the President is an independent Constitutional actor. Consider the famous Tenure in Office Act, where Andrew Johnson was prohibited by Congress from firing his cabinet officers, under the theory that since their appointment was via Congress’ advice and consent, their removal must require the same advice and consent. President Johnson rightly regarded this as an unconstitutional encroachment on his Art II powers, and fired Secretary of War Staunton. Congress impeached him for violating the Act, but failed to convict him in the Senate. The Supreme Court later ruled the Tenure in Office Act unconstitutional. Note also that because of the “case or controversy” requirement of Art III, the federal courts may not render advisory opinions. If, in other words, a President believes a law to be unconstitutional, he may not simply ask the courts to decide that question in the abstract. There must be a actual case which violates the law in order for the courts to weigh in on the issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=19)