# Libya and Obama; it's the last straw for me **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212 "2011-03-19T00:40:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/361 "2011-03-23T13:13:30Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > You know, I’d like to address this allegation, as well. Will you please point out for me, where I ever said I didn’t know why we were engaging in military action in Libya. You seem to be flinging another insult at me here and I’d like to know from whence that allegation came. Sorry about that. Somehow I mixed up your post with **Bricker** ’s. As for the “dick-waving context” you ask about… I think it’s just called a debate. I’m really at a loss why you think it’s two guys trying to see who’s the tougher. If you look at the post right about this, he gave a pretty level headed response. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/362 "2011-03-23T13:14:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Note also that because of the “case or controversy” requirement of Art III, the federal courts may not render advisory opinions. If, in other words, a President believes a law to be unconstitutional, he may not simply ask the courts to decide that question in the abstract. There must be a actual case which violates the law in order for the courts to weigh in on the issue. I’ve always thought that weird. You must break the law before we can challenge it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/363 "2011-03-23T13:22:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s certainly the presumption that a citizen faces when challenging an act of Congress. Yes. Civil disobedience. > [@](#): > > But the President is an independent Constitutional actor. Consider the famous Tenure in Office Act, where Andrew Johnson was prohibited by Congress from firing his cabinet officers, under the theory that since their appointment was via Congress’ advice and consent, their removal must require the same advice and consent. President Johnson rightly regarded this as an unconstitutional encroachment on his Art II powers, and fired Secretary of War Staunton. Congress impeached him for violating the Act, but failed to convict him in the Senate. The Supreme Court later ruled the Tenure in Office Act unconstitutional. > > Note also that because of the “case or controversy” requirement of Art III, the federal courts may not render advisory opinions. If, in other words, a President believes a law to be unconstitutional, he may not simply ask the courts to decide that question in the abstract. There must be a actual case which violates the law in order for the courts to weigh in on the issue. So, the only recourse here is impeachment? If that’s the case, then I could get behind that. I"m very uncomfortable with a situation where the president can just do whatever he wants, regardless of what legislation Congress passes. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/364 "2011-03-23T13:36:39Z")
re: War Powers Resolution. Section 2© was quoted already regarding Congress’s view on the President’s substantive provisions that allow the President to use force: (1) declaration of war, (2) statutory authorization, (3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States. However, Section 8(d) states: Nothing in this chapter is intended to alter the constitutional authority of the…President or the provisions of existing treaties. That means whatever constitutional powers the President has that are not listed in Section 2©, he still has (that’s how it reads at least, pro-WPR people argue otherwise). One example is the President’s constitutional power to rescue (not the situation in Libya), which is not listed in the WPR. There are more, though. It just means the President can do more than the list in Sec. 2©. Most significantly, regarding Libya, is Section 8(b): Nothing in the WPR shall be construed to require any further statutory authorization to permit armed forces to participate jointly with one or more foreign countries…pursuant to the UN charter. Not that any President, ever, would be impeached for “violating” the WPR, but I don’t think he even is. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/365 "2011-03-23T13:43:28Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Genocide. A la Clinton’s intervention under U.N. auspices in the former Yugoslavia. You mean the rather late and feeble intervention in the Yugoslavian civil war, where a lot of suffering could have been avoided if we’d been quicker and more decisive in our actions? Seriously, you want to wait until the mass graves are being filled and the atrocities are in full swing before doing something? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/366 "2011-03-23T14:18:08Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > You’ve made 30 posts in this thread ‘explaining’ and defending and supporting Obama’s action. Judging from this post, I think the strain of being an apologist for something you–in your heart–know is wrong must be getting to you. Lying, dumbass pussy too scared to admit when you’re wrong. Don’t dare tell me what’s in my heart. You can’t possibly begin to know what’s in the heart of a Jew when they see an evil dictator start massacring his citizens, you vile, filthy piece of shit. And since you’re obviously so severely deficient in working brain cells, I guess I’ll have to paint you a picture in small words. It. Can. Be. Right. And. Still. Not. Liked. Moron. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Sorry about that. Somehow I mixed up your post with **Bricker** ’s. Accepted. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > As for the “dick-waving context” you ask about… I think it’s just called a debate. I’m really at a loss why you think it’s two guys trying to see who’s the tougher. If you look at the post right about this, he gave a pretty level headed response. You’re at a loss when I _quoted_ the part of your post that made me believe that’s what you were pulling? Here, I’ll quote it again, this time with added emphasis: > [@John\_Mace](#): > > How does that work as a general principal? We **all** get to decide which laws the president can ignore or is it only **you** who can do that? I notice you completely ignored the post where I pulled out a bigger dick than yours on the subject. You want to go back to being nice? Then don’t be rude to me. M’kay? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/367 "2011-03-23T14:22:56Z")
[http://wcti12.com/news/27257042/detail.html](http://wcti12.com/news/27257042/detail.html) Apparently, if this report is correct, the ground forces are going in. Still think we’re going to be out of this by Monday, Shayna? Got any witty comments, eluciadator? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/368 "2011-03-23T14:54:58Z")
I could teach you, but I’d have to charge. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/369 "2011-03-23T15:01:40Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > We actually did go into Libya with F-111s dropping some very carefully targeted laser-guided bombs at the first sign of trouble, or at least as soon as possible after the Lockerbie investigation was mostly finished. It was operation Eldorado Canyon, and ordered by “Ronnie” if the illustrious Ms. Burke would care to become more informed: You have got some serious issues with chronology. Using the 1988 gassing of Kurds, which was ignored at the time, to claim Saddam was committing genocide in 2003 was bad enough. Now you are ascribing to “Ronnie” some true superpowers of prescience for [Eldorado Canyon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Libya_(1986)) by ordering the bombings in April 1986 in retaliation for the Lockerbie bombing over 2 years before it actually occurred in December 1988. Truly, the illustrious Mr. Nadir is keeping himself well informed. ---
**Author:** ![clarkstar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@clarkstar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clarkstar)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/370 "2011-03-23T15:07:15Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Hardy-har-har. This is such arrant nonsense that I shall not bother to respond further. its racist ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/371 "2011-03-23T15:16:04Z")
> [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > [http://wcti12.com/news/27257042/detail.html](http://wcti12.com/news/27257042/detail.html) > > Apparently, if this report is correct, the ground forces are going in. > Still think we’re going to be out of this by Monday, Shayna? > Got any witty comments, eluciadator? Did you even read that story, **PC**? I ask, because it talks about the 26th MEU’s participation in _airstrikes_ using [AV-8B Harrier jumpjets](http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=av-8b+photos&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&sa=X&ei=KQ6KTeHuE8eB0QHGvsj_DQ&ved=0CCIQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=815). (Marines do more than ground assault.) ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/372 "2011-03-23T15:17:07Z")
> [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > [http://wcti12.com/news/27257042/detail.html](http://wcti12.com/news/27257042/detail.html) > > Apparently, if this report is correct, the ground forces are going in. > Still think we’re going to be out of this by Monday, Shayna? > Got any witty comments, eluciadator? What are you talking about? That article says nothing whatsoever about ground forces. “26th MEU, as part of Joint Task Force Odyssey Dawn, **launched a second round of strikes by AV-8B Harrier jump jets**.” The Marines _do_ have planes, you know. [AV-8B Harrier jump jet](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7629264027098010516#) ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/373 "2011-03-23T15:18:26Z")
Beatcha. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/374 "2011-03-23T15:20:18Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Beatcha. Missed it by _that_ much! 😛 (Funny how alike our posts are! 🆒 ) ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/375 "2011-03-23T15:49:50Z")
Peyote pwnage. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/376 "2011-03-23T16:04:56Z")
It has been reported that Gadaffy is trying through diplomatic channels, to get out. He wants a pile of money and a country that will take him. Even he has figured out this will not end well for him. That would be a quick and painless ending . It would show all that Obama is a genius who made this all possible. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/377 "2011-03-23T16:25:49Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > It has been reported that Gadaffy is trying through diplomatic channels, to get out. He wants a pile of money and a country that will take him. Even he has figured out this will not end well for him. > That would be a quick and painless ending . It would show all that Obama is a genius who made this all possible. From your mouth to Og’s ears! ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/378 "2011-03-23T16:30:55Z")
This seems to refer to Sec State Clinton’s comments that figures “close” to Qaddafi “may” be reaching out diplomatically. I think it would be an overly enthusiastic interpretation to think this means the 'til now defiant leader is looking to make a deal. He might be continuing to lose political inside allies, or looking for diplomatic deals which don’t involve abdication. I’d be cautious in my expectations here. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/379 "2011-03-23T16:33:11Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Well, since I don’t have a dick, I’ll wave [this guy’s](http://jurist.org/forum/2011/03/the-president-does-not-need-congressional-approval-for-libya-no-fly-zone-yet.php): > > JURIST Contributing Editor Michael J. Kelly, Professor of Law and Associate Dean for Faculty Research and International Programs at Creighton University School of Law says that, for now, President Obama has the legal authority to commit U.S. military forces to establish the no-fly zone over Libya… > > **The President Does Not Need Congressional Approval for Libya No-Fly Zone (Yet)** > > . . . > > " **Under the WPR, the President may commit U.S. forces into armed hostilities, but must advise Congress within 48 hours that he has done so.** This report must explain the circumstances necessitating the deployment, the legal authority he is relying on, and the estimated scope and duration of hostilities. A 60-day clock then begins ticking, at the end of which the president must terminate his military action unless (1) Congress has specifically authorized it, (2) Congress has extended the 60 days, or (3) Congress is physically unable to meet due to an attack on the U.S. But the President may extend the 60 days by another 30 days if he certifies to Congress that he cannot safely remove U.S. forces from combat without that additional time. > > “\*\*Thus, an American president operating under the WPR, basically has 92 days total to get his military business done abroad without specific Congressional authorization. \*\*That said, Congress reserves the right to itself to pull the plug on any executive military adventures by concurrent resolution at any time. However, no Congress has never done this and it is unlikely that any would. President Reagan duly reported his engagement with Libya to Congress. **Likewise, President Obama duly reported his own engagement with Libya to Congress.** ” > > . . . > > There you go. In that article, did the author mention what President Obama cited as was the legal authority that he was relying on? I’m not snarking here; I expect that the administration has articulated _something_, but if so it hasn’t gotten much press. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/380 "2011-03-23T19:35:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You might also claim, as other posters have inferred, that yes, this is a civil war - that would fit your ad hoc list of reasons, wouldn’t it? I stated in the OP that this is a civil war and it is none of our business. I’m seeing people in this thread who are desperately scratching for excuses rather than face their own intellectual and moral dishonesty, desperately attempting to spin the fact that they are only supporting this action because Obama did it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=20)