# Libya and Obama; it's the last straw for me **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212 "2011-03-19T00:40:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/21 "2011-03-19T03:57:21Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > McCain would had invaded Russia. Hell, McCain would have invaded Belgium. Or Canada. Maybe Belgium by way of Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/22 "2011-03-19T04:05:32Z")
Who the hell invades Belgium by way of some place else? Belgium is the place you conquer on the way to whatever it is you were planning on conquering. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/23 "2011-03-19T04:44:31Z")
Meanwhile, we don’t give a shit about what’s going on in Bahrain. All you have to do to keep your absolute monarchy alive in the ME is offer us a base and at least pretend to be fight the WoT with us. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/24 "2011-03-19T05:19:45Z")
Well, for what it may be worth, it appears that U.S. support is luke-warm at best. [CNN report](http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/18/obama.no.fly/index.html?hpt=T1) \* “We will provide the unique capabilities that we can bring to bear to stop the violence against civilians, including enabling our European allies and Arab partners to effectively enforce a no-fly zone,” the president said in a nationally televised statement about U.S. military action. “The president chose his words deliberately and carefully, and you should be guided by them,” the official said. “He is very sensitive that this not be a U.S. operation. We are part of it. And of course, we by nature of our superior capabilities have a lead and leadership role to play. But we are part of it and expect a lot from our partners,” the official said. Asked about the “unique capabilities” the president talked about contributing, the official said that at least for now, they would not involve combat fighters or bombers but instead would include AWACS, intelligence-gathering drones and other intelligence assets, and refueling and air traffic control.\* ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/25 "2011-03-19T05:32:59Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I am, obviously, growing increasingly distressed that my vote for Obama has resulted in what I would have hoped for had I wished to vote for McCain. Maybe Frank, just maybe, you are seeing things as they really are for the first time. When it comes down to it, it doesn’t really matter who is in the white house. This country is and has been run by power brokers that seem to drive the country in whatever direction serves their purposes. Democrats have just as much to lose as Republicans. When you are speaking of the uber-rich, they all have the same goal. Keep their wealth, and whenever possible, increase it. Democrats and Republicans, at the top, are the same people. They are the wealth holders of this country. And neither side is going to enact policy that will hurt in any way the property of the elite, ruling class. That’s the tragedy that our country is suffering from. Because when a two party system is in reality a one-party system, what is it that we have, really? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/26 "2011-03-19T05:35:10Z")
How does the Libyan operation serve the interests of the power brokers, again? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/27 "2011-03-19T06:00:41Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > How does the Libyan operation serve the interests of the power brokers, again? That remains to be seen. We have to wait a while to see what anybody has in mind. Libya does have oil. Iraq has oil. We hate Iran and they are evil. They have oil. We hate Venezuela, they have oil. Pure coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/28 "2011-03-19T09:50:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Meanwhile, we don’t give a shit about what’s going on in Bahrain. All you have to do to keep your absolute monarchy alive in the ME is offer us a base and at least pretend to be fight the WoT with us. See also Yemen. On the matter of “all means necessary”, I point you [here](http://craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2011/03/military-action-against-libya-is-not-illegal-not-about-democracy-and-very-limited/), a former British ambassador’s take on the actual text of the UN resolution. ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/29 "2011-03-19T14:39:34Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > There’s no indication of genocide in Libya; it’s a simple civil war. It’s the civilians rising up against the Army. It’s a perfectly valid act of war for a government to attack the civilians that are taking military action against it. Wasn’t one of the ignition points for the rebellion the defection of Lybian jet pilots who flew to Malta rather than opening fire on their own countrymen? At that point, it was only protests, not a full blown civil war. While it may not amount to genocide, Colonel K/Q/G was ordering the slaughter of civilians who hadn’t taken up arms. The day before the UN resolution, the Colonel and his sons were vowing to massacre any remaining rebels. Again, not genocide, but not exactly humanitarian either. You may disagree with US involvement with the no-fly zone, but please understand where it’s coming from. ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/30 "2011-03-19T14:44:45Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > That remains to be seen. We have to wait a while to see what anybody has in mind. > Libya does have oil. Iraq has oil. We hate Iran and they are evil. They have oil. We hate Venezuela, they have oil. Pure coincidence. Please don’t forget the history of US hatred for Canada. They have oil. And Saudi Arabia. And Qatar, Nigeria, and Angola. Don’t forget Russia (okay, maybe we do still have a little hate-on for them). I don’t see much correlation between who has oil, who the US invades, and who we have bad relationships with. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/31 "2011-03-19T15:09:10Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Frank, you didn’t get the memo. We’re regaining the moral highground and being accepted back into the fold of the international community. > > \ > 4 is just a fact. WWI, WW2, Vietnam, JFK’s latin American adventures and Clinton’s continuance of Bush I’s Iraqi policy blow away the Pubs. Not even close really, despite Nixon’s and Reagan’s valiant attempts. I’ll admit Dubya got the Pubs off to a really good start for this century though. It must make the Dems jealous. This is amusing stuff: so Wilson and Roosevelt started the world wars. Who knew? You do realize that both presidents kept us out of those horrors as long as was possible, right? Who got us into Vietnam in the first place again? Oh right: Eisenhower. Please do go on. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/32 "2011-03-19T15:16:12Z")
So far I haven’t heard anything about US intervention. Was watching CNN this morning and they were saying that the French have already started flying over Libya, and it seems their ROE includes ground strikes against Libyan military units attacking civilians (though unless they have spotters on the ground I can’t see how they will tell the difference between pro-Kaddafi and rebels). From what I’ve heard the UK, France and Canada will be providing assets for this. I see this as the potential for a huge slippery slope, and I’m not sanguine about the outcome here. I don’t know what can or should be done, but once the UN passed it’s resolution (with US approval) I’d say that the die was cast at that point. I don’t blame Obama for this…in fact, he seems to have kept us out of it (for now) and is letting the French take the lead. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/33 "2011-03-19T15:16:56Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > While it may not amount to genocide, Colonel K/Q/G was ordering the slaughter of civilians who hadn’t taken up arms. That’s right. Gaddafi initiated the killing. **Frank** calling it “perfectly valid” is kind of sickening, really–puts him in a class with **Commissar** , around here. ---
**Author:** ![Waxwinged](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@Waxwinged](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waxwinged)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/34 "2011-03-19T15:23:19Z")
Erhh… Didn’t Lybya’s government declare a ceasefire, then violated their own ceasefire, at this point? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/35 "2011-03-19T15:57:32Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > See also Yemen. Yes, I should have mentioned both because of the similarities. Well, it does look like the French and British are taking the lead so far, but I still am given pause by the idea that the UN can intervene in the internal affairs of a country. Not that I worry it could happen to a “real” power, like the US, but it does seem to violate the UN charter. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/36 "2011-03-19T16:45:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yes, I should have mentioned both because of the similarities. > > Well, it does look like the French and British are taking the lead so far, but I still am given pause by the idea that the UN can intervene in the internal affairs of a country. Not that I worry it could happen to a “real” power, like the US, but it does seem to violate the UN charter. Look into the concept of [R2P](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect) - responsibility to protect. The Ghadaffi regime’s behavior is not genocide, which is the only time the international community is _obliged_ to intervene in another country’s internal affairs (which so far they have done a pretty poor job at), but it is clearly a violation of human rights, which falls under Responsibility to Protect. R2P is a norm and not a law, but it does have a lot of sway in the international community, including in the UNSC. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/37 "2011-03-19T17:03:11Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > Please don’t forget the history of US hatred for Canada. They have oil. And Saudi Arabia. And Qatar, Nigeria, and Angola. Don’t forget Russia (okay, maybe we do still have a little hate-on for them). > > I don’t see much correlation between who has oil, who the US invades, and who we have bad relationships with. The ones like Canada and Russia who don’t upset the oil supply lines are tolerated. The ones that threaten the oil supply lines or cost stability ,have to go. \ We all know what a repressive money grabbing place Saudi Arabia is. Why do you think Bush was holding hands with their leaders? They do not threaten the supply lines. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/38 "2011-03-19T17:14:27Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Look into the concept of [R2P](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect) - responsibility to protect. > > The Ghadaffi regime’s behavior is not genocide, which is the only time the international community is _obliged_ to intervene in another country’s internal affairs (which so far they have done a pretty poor job at), but it is clearly a violation of human rights, which falls under Responsibility to Protect. R2P is a norm and not a law, but it does have a lot of sway in the international community, including in the UNSC. That just looks to me like a legalistic fig leaf to give the great powers the ability to disregard sovereignty when it is convenient to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/39 "2011-03-19T17:18:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That just looks to me like a legalistic fig leaf to give the great powers the ability to disregard sovereignty when it is convenient to do so. Yeah, there are all sorts of places we could be intervening under that fig leaf, but we have the good sense not to. Would that that good sense had held sway with Libya. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/40 "2011-03-19T17:19:28Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > That’s right. Gaddafi initiated the killing. Do you folks think that the rebels took Benghazi bloodlessly? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=3)