# Libya and Obama; it's the last straw for me **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212 "2011-03-19T00:40:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/381 "2011-03-23T19:48:21Z")
You’re almost there, you might as well just say Obamessiah too. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/382 "2011-03-23T20:11:31Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > You have got some serious issues with chronology. Using the 1988 gassing of Kurds, which was ignored at the time, to claim Saddam was committing genocide in 2003 was bad enough. Now you are ascribing to “Ronnie” some true superpowers of prescience for [Eldorado Canyon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Libya_(1986)) by ordering the bombings in April 1986 in retaliation for the Lockerbie bombing over 2 years before it actually occurred in December 1988. Truly, the illustrious Mr. Nadir is keeping himself well informed. …you can’t connect the dots. Or due to willful ignorance, simply ignore them. Good luck with that! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/383 "2011-03-23T20:12:36Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I stated in the OP that this is a civil war and it is none of our business. And you were wrong then just like you are now. What’s going on in Libya is not a civil war; it’s a revolution. And one in which a ruthless dictator is attempting to slaughter people who have risen up against his rule. Now you might want to claim that _that’s_ none of our business, and that would be fine if that’s your view. But to keep trying to claim that what’s going on in Libya is merely a contest between opposing factions of the populace vying for supremacy is verbal flummery intended to dishonestly cast what is going on there in such a way as to make it harder to support. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/384 "2011-03-23T20:18:47Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I’m seeing people in this thread who are desperately scratching for excuses rather than face their own intellectual and moral dishonesty, desperately attempting to spin the fact that they are only supporting this action because Obama did it. No, but I for one definitely start off giving Obama less distrust than I gave his predecessor. Felt the same way about Ford over Nixon. (Would’ve been fucking stupid not to have doubted Nixon’s ulterior motives, and would’ve been a waste of good paranoia to spend time worrying about a backstab from Gerry.) That doesn’t mean I agree with everything he does, it just means I tend to take him at his word unless there’s a compelling reason for doubt, even when I disagree with his reasons. In this case, I can’t disagree with his stated reasons, and I have no cause to doubt his earnest intent to stick to the limited scope he’s described. In addition to that, because I’m not all pouty over Barry’s lack of superliberalism, I can still remember that a major reason I voted for him was his competence and thoughtful approach. This means that, even though I think I can see some of the downsides and some of the upsides to the US as a result of this action’s possible success or failure, I know damn well Obama’s thought of everything I have plus a hell of a lot more I’d never know about. -That’s not a feeling I had for long with Bush 43, but that’s because his people believed they could make their own reality. I’ve only ever seen the Obama folks working with what they’ve got in front of them. May be a downer when you want dynamic leadership, but it sure produces more effective governance. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/385 "2011-03-23T20:24:40Z")
[http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog\_theenvoy/20110323/ts\_yblog\_theenvoy/averting-srebrenica-on-steroids-white-house-defends-libya-operations](http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theenvoy/20110323/ts_yblog_theenvoy/averting-srebrenica-on-steroids-white-house-defends-libya-operations) Frank, you might want to read this. > [@](#): > > This is a limited humanitarian intervention, not war," said White House Middle East strategist Dennis Ross, during a briefing at the White House Roosevelt Room Tuesday, according to a foreign policy experts who attended the briefing. National Security Council strategic planning official Derek Chollet, and two military officials were also in attendance. > > “We were looking at ‘Srebrenica on steroids’ —the real or imminent possibility that up to a 100,000 people could be massacred, and everyone would blame us for it,” Ross explained, according to the attendee, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the administration is trying to keep its consultations private. > > … > > “This humanitarian intervention had to happen,” an attendee summarized McDonough’s message. The attendee also spoke on condition of anonymity because of the White House’s request for confidentiality. McDonough also said, according to the attendee: “The president consulted extensively with Congress through the entire month. Congress has the right and responsibility to be on the record on this under the war powers act that is their role under the articles of the Constitution.” Apparently, just because we don’t hear about things doesn’t mean they don’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/386 "2011-03-23T22:39:32Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > You’re almost there, you might as well just say Obamessiah too. I voted for him. That’s one of the things that makes this so very disappointing to me. **E-Sabbath** , gosh, an adminstration official supports an administration action! Film at eleven. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/387 "2011-03-23T22:46:46Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > **E-Sabbath** , gosh, an adminstration official supports an administration action! Film at eleven. No, an administration official reports that the POTUS consulted “heavily” with Congress. Is this is not true, I expect to see it rebutted in short order, but if it is true it puts the “violation of War Powers Act” argument in a different light. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/388 "2011-03-23T22:52:21Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > What’s going on in Libya is not a civil war; it’s a revolution. And one in which a ruthless dictator is attempting to slaughter people who have risen up against his rule. Civilians have armed themselves against the government. Military units have defected to the rebels (or insurrectionists, or whatever). Both have taken military action against the government, and killed civilians who support Qaddaffi. It’s ignorant to ignore the fact that large swathes of the Libyan population still support their government, including civilians taking up arms against the rebels and military units that remain loyal. Whether it is termed a civil war, a revolution, an insurrection, whatever: it is none of our business to interfere. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/389 "2011-03-23T22:53:43Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > No, an administration official reports that the POTUS consulted “heavily” with Congress. Is this is not true, I expect to see it rebutted in short order, but if it is true it puts the “violation of War Powers Act” argument in a different light. In which post of mine in this thread have I argued that the War Powers Act is relevant to my position? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/390 "2011-03-23T23:01:15Z")
Well, ya got me there. All you did was complain that “this thing in Libya was not thought about for one fucking moment.” Sorry about my confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/391 "2011-03-23T23:07:31Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Well, ya got me there. All you did was complain that “this thing in Libya was not thought about for one fucking moment.” Sorry about my confusion. OK, then, from your vast knowledge of the subject, please tell me the consensus that Obama and Congress have reached on our goals. When are we done? When do we withdraw? When do we declare Mission Accomplished? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/392 "2011-03-23T23:27:29Z")
[Wish others were asking those questions of someone who might be in a position to answer.](http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/03/22/president-libya-we-have-already-saved-lives) Guess no one but you is smart enough or independent minded enough. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/393 "2011-03-24T00:02:10Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > [Wish others were asking those questions of someone who might be in a position to answer.](http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/03/22/president-libya-we-have-already-saved-lives) Guess no one but you is smart enough or independent minded enough. Then you can surely pick out and explain to me: 1. Why it is our business. 2. When is it no longer our business. Y’know, this is bullshit, **xenophon**. I disagree with the action. I believe that President Obama has made a mistake. You disagree with me. Yet all you offer me in contraindication is self-supporting statements from the administration. Shouldn’t it be readily apparent by now that I’m not buying that? ETA: You didn’t answer my question as to the results of consultation with Congress. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/394 "2011-03-24T00:28:25Z")
Oops, another ranking Administration figure weighs in on the Presidential authority issue: [What say you, Joe Biden](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adpa5kYUhCA) ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/395 "2011-03-24T00:44:49Z")
\*…At some point in the coming weeks, if it is clear that, despite the allied air campaign and the no-fly zone, the Libyan rebels are nowhere close to ousting Gaddafi, the pressure for further intervention will grow. At that point, I would expect to see the Administration’s rhetoric shift to demonization of Gaddafi (admittedly not a difficult task) in an effort to build support for a wider campaign to oust him from power. \* **[Outside The Beltway](http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/white-house-now-says-goal-in-libya-is-regime-change-installing-a-democratic-system/)** — White House Now Says Goal In Libya Is Regime Change, Installing A Democratic System 22 March 2011 > [@E-Sabbath](#): > > [http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog\_theenvoy/20110323/ts\_yblog\_theenvoy/averting-srebrenica-on-steroids-white-house-defends-libya-operations](http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theenvoy/20110323/ts_yblog_theenvoy/averting-srebrenica-on-steroids-white-house-defends-libya-operations) \* > > Frank, you might want to read this. > > > [@](#): > > > > This is a limited humanitarian intervention, not war," said White House Middle East strategist Dennis Ross, during a briefing at the White House Roosevelt Room Tuesday, according to a foreign policy experts who attended the briefing. National Security Council strategic planning official Derek Chollet, and two military officials were also in attendance. > > > > “We were looking at ‘Srebrenica on steroids’ —the real or imminent possibility that up to a 100,000 people could be massacred, and everyone would blame us for it,” Ross explained, according to the attendee, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the administration is trying to keep its consultations private. > > > > … > > > > “This humanitarian intervention had to happen,” an attendee summarized McDonough’s message. The attendee also spoke on condition of anonymity because of the White House’s request for confidentiality. McDonough also said, according to the attendee: “The president consulted extensively with Congress through the entire month. Congress has the right and responsibility to be on the record on this under the war powers act that is their role under the articles of the Constitution.” > > Apparently, just because we don’t hear about things doesn’t mean they don’t happen. - Dated 23 March 2011 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/396 "2011-03-24T00:54:47Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Oops, another ranking Administration figure weighs in on the Presidential authority issue: > > [What say you, Joe Biden](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adpa5kYUhCA) Ah, but he was talking about attacking a country with 70M people. Libya only has about 6M. No problem explaining that away!! ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/397 "2011-03-24T00:57:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Ah, but he was talking about attacking a country with 70M people. Libya only has about 6M. No problem explaining that away!! Yet another example of size matters… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/398 "2011-03-24T00:58:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, what’s the plan, **John**? He’s lying, ok, he’s lying. To what end? I don’t see what he has to gain by this, but if you do, why don’t you tell us? I don’t think I said he lied, did I? I’m really not sure what is motivating him here. Clearly this is not something he wanted to do, and had to be pressured into. If I had to guess, I’d say that he’s hoping to get some payback in increased European support in Afghanistan. That is not going well, and the Europeans are eager to jump ship. But that’s just a guess. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/399 "2011-03-24T00:58:39Z")
Biden is already on his way to Mexico to cool his heels for awhile. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/400 "2011-03-24T03:21:18Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Then you can surely pick out and explain to me: > > 1. Why it is our business. > > 2. When is it no longer our business. > > Y’know, this is bullshit, **xenophon**. I disagree with the action. I believe that President Obama has made a mistake. You disagree with me. Yet all you offer me in contraindication is self-supporting statements from the administration. > > Shouldn’t it be readily apparent by now that I’m not buying that? > > ETA: You didn’t answer my question as to the results of consultation with Congress. Disagree with the action all you want, but when your questions are answered by the guy who made the decision (and therefore, whose opinion actually matters), don’t get pissy with me because you don’t like the answers. As far as “the results” of consultation with Congress, I imagine our participation in the NFZ might be a clue. However, since I’m not in Congress and I am not the POTUS, I guess one of those guys will have to answer. If only some of them would, eh? But they’re so reticent about discussing foreign policy in front of cameras, I don’t know how we’ll ever find out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=21)