# Libya and Obama; it's the last straw for me **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212 "2011-03-19T00:40:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/441 "2011-03-25T22:41:20Z")
> [@](#): > > His resume includes lecturer in Constitutional law at a well-regarded law school. And yours? I got my education from listening to him lecture us on what he would do as president. But I guess I missed the day when he covered the “oops” amendment. ---
**Author:** ![UncaThomas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/c77e96/32.png) [@UncaThomas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncaThomas)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/442 "2011-03-26T01:57:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > His resume includes lecturer in Constitutional law at a well-regarded law school. So He would know for sure then that the President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation? It’s ok though. He also knows it’s a lack of leadership that causes Congress to raise the Federal debt limit. He knows lots of stuff. > [@](#): > > March 20, 2006: This was the last stand-alone debt limit vote on which then-Senator Obama voted. He was one of 48 members to vote against the increase, which passed with 52 votes. > > He said: **“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure.** It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren.\*\* America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.\*\*” I wonder if he’ll say the same thing when our debt blasts through $14.3 trillion in the next few months. I wonder what excuses people will make for him then. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/443 "2011-03-26T03:31:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I honestly thought that was a joke. What “threats to the national security and foreign policy of the United States” are involved here? The President’s ability to tell the armed forces to shoot things is not limited to threats to the national security and foreign policy of the United States. He can tell people to shoot anything he wants. For example, pirates. Or he can outlaw Russia. It’s all within his power. I’m not seeing the problem here. Why are you ranting about it being unconstitutional? You don’t like it, fine, but it’s perfectly in his enumerated powers. Geez, John, I thought you were better than ElvisLives. Don’t tell me you’re sinking to his level and just ignoring shit you don’t like, like he does in gun control debates. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/444 "2011-03-26T03:55:09Z")
> [@Aeris](#): > > Thank you Shayna. I agree with 90% of what Shayna has been trying to do in this thread. Gonzomax also mentioned earlier that Obama just can’t win. He’s damned if he does, and damned if he doesn’t. Someone won’t be happy but I really do trust his judgement for the most part, and certainly I trust him more than most politicians. Does he make mistakes? Does he do stupid things? Duh, uhh he’s human. But do I think he’s better than most, yes. > > So I just wanted to pop in and support Shayna a little bit because I really thought that post was great. 😃 Wow, how sweet of you to say. Thank you. That made my day. 🙂 > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Or, perhaps if Obama had not dithered until it was almost too late, he could have had more time to work with Congress. Sarah, is that you? I never took you for a “talking points” guy, John. You should be ashamed. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/445 "2011-03-26T04:07:43Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > In that article, did the author mention what President Obama cited as was the legal authority that he was relying on? I’m not snarking here; I expect that the administration has articulated _something_, but if so it hasn’t gotten much press. I apologize, Tom, I seem to have overlooked this post. (This forum’s “go to first unread post” feature works like shit.) The author did not mention what Obama cited as his legal authority. But we know that Obama has to provide Congress with what he feels is his legal authority, in writing, within 48 hours of troop deployment, so clearly that’s been done. So far, I haven’t heard any member of Congress come out and declare that the Presidents legal reasoning is faulty. And though I can’t be certain, of course, I’m fairly confident that if he had faulty legal reasoning, we’d have heard about it from John Boehner by now. The bottom line is, the WPA gives him the authority to engage the troops first, outline his legal reasoning second, then wait for Congress to approve or disapprove. If they approve, they give him the statutory authority to continue. If not, they can decide whether or not to pursue impeachment. In the meantime, the President still has that 90 day window within which he can continue, even without the permission of Congress, and even if they ultimately reject his legal reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/446 "2011-03-26T04:12:06Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > The President’s ability to tell the armed forces to shoot things is not limited to threats to the national security and foreign policy of the United States. He can tell people to shoot anything he wants. For example, pirates. Or he can outlaw Russia. It’s all within his power. > > I’m not seeing the problem here. Why are you ranting about it being unconstitutional? You don’t like it, fine, but it’s perfectly in his enumerated powers. > Geez, John, I thought you were better than ElvisLives. Don’t tell me you’re sinking to his level and just ignoring shit you don’t like, like he does in gun control debates. OK. Now I know you’re joking. Only Sarah Palin can outlaw Russia, because she can see it from her front porch. Everyone knows that!! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/447 "2011-03-26T04:20:45Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Sarah, is that you? > > I never took you for a “talking points” guy, John. You should be ashamed. Well, if you argument consists of name calling, I don’t think you should be telling people they should be ashamed of themselves. I stand by what I said in context. I was responding to claims that Obama allegedly was unable to get Congressional approval because there was no time. He’s partly to blame for waiting until the absolute last minute before realizing he might want to act. You want to argue with me over any topic, and I’m game. You want to retreat into the realm of name calling and smear tactics, then I’m not interested. ---
**Author:** ![UncaThomas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/c77e96/32.png) [@UncaThomas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncaThomas)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/448 "2011-03-26T04:48:02Z")
Well, apparently we will soon be doing more than acting as the tactical air force for the Libyan rebels. It’s not enough that we coordinate air strikes with the rebels and engage their enemies from the air. No, now our humanitarian mission may quite possibly include supplying whatever arms we feel they need. After all, our humanitarian mission to prevent civilian casualties has “failed to dislodge government forces from around key contested towns”. > [@](#): > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-allies-ponder-arming-libyan-rebels/2011/03/25/AFJP9mYB\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-allies-ponder-arming-libyan-rebels/2011/03/25/AFJP9mYB_story.html) > > U.S., allies ponder arming Libyan rebels > > The United States and its allies are considering whether to supply weapons to the Libyan opposition as coalition airstrikes fail to dislodge [http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-allies-ponder-arming-libyan-rebels/2011/03/25/AFJP9mYB\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-allies-ponder-arming-libyan-rebels/2011/03/25/AFJP9mYB_story.html) > > U.S., allies ponder arming Libyan rebels > > The United States and its allies are considering whether to supply weapons to the Libyan opposition as coalition airstrikes fail to dislodge government forces from around key contested towns, according to U.S. and European officials. > > France actively supports training and arming the rebels, and the Obama administration believes the United Nations resolution that authorized international intervention in Libya has the “flexibility” to allow such assistance, “if we thought that were the right way to go,” Obama spokesman Jay Carney said. It was a “possibility,” he said., according to U.S. and European officials. > > France actively supports training and arming the rebels, and the Obama administration believes the United Nations resolution that authorized international intervention in Libya has the “flexibility” to allow such assistance, “if we thought that were the right way to go,” Obama spokesman Jay Carney said. It was a “possibility,” he said. Thank goodness we’re not getting into the Libyan civil war any deeper. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/449 "2011-03-26T05:18:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, if you argument consists of name calling, I don’t think you should be telling people they should be ashamed of themselves. > > I stand by what I said in context. I was responding to claims that Obama allegedly was unable to get Congressional approval because there was no time. He’s partly to blame for waiting until the absolute last minute before realizing he might want to act. > > You want to argue with me over any topic, and I’m game. You want to retreat into the realm of name calling and smear tactics, then I’m not interested. Awww, aren’t you just precious when you get called out. Not to mention hilarious when you have a temper tantrum over being called “Sarah”. “Name-calling” you say? Grow the fuck up. Your feigned offense at being spoken to rudely is obnoxious, given that you started the nastiness with this gem: > [@John\_Mace](#): > > How does that work as a general principal? We all get to decide which laws the president can ignore _or is it only you who can do that?_ Now I _know_ you’re Little Miss Sarah, constantly offended and whining about _everything_. I’m in the Pit. I don’t have to be nice to someone who hasn’t been nice to me. Deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/450 "2011-03-26T13:20:33Z")
**John** , when _ **Shayna** _ tells you you’re getting simplistic and bombastic and hysterical … ya know? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/451 "2011-03-26T13:32:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **John** , when _ **Shayna** _ tells you you’re getting simplistic and bombastic and hysterical … ya know? The only person I’ve seen getting hysterical in this thread is **Shayna**. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/452 "2011-03-26T13:35:01Z")
That’s the first post I’ve seen here from you that isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/453 "2011-03-26T13:52:30Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Awww, aren’t you just precious when you get called out. Not to mention hilarious when you have a temper tantrum over being called “Sarah”. “Name-calling” you say? Grow the fuck up. Your feigned offense at being spoken to rudely is obnoxious, given that you started the nastiness with this gem: Now I _know_ you’re Little Miss Sarah, constantly offended and whining about _everything_. You call that a temper tantrum? That’s pure GD material, baby. You should learn the difference between being offended and being uninterested in childish games. > [@](#): > > I’m in the Pit. I don’t have to be nice to someone who hasn’t been nice to me. Deal with it. It’ll be tough, but I think I’ll manage. I’ve got a session with my therapist later this afternoon, so she’ll be able to help me with the emotional trauma. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/454 "2011-03-26T15:42:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK. Now I know you’re joking. Only Sarah Palin can outlaw Russia, because she can see it from her front porch. Everyone knows that!! John, you’re really disappointing me. You don’t remember what I’m talking about? > **[We begin bombing in five minutes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_begin_bombing_in_five_minutes)** > > "We begin bombing in five minutes" is the last sentence of a controversial, off-the-record joke made by U.S. President Ronald Reagan in 1984, during the Cold War. While preparing for a scheduled radio address from his vacation home in California, Reagan joked with those present about outlawing and bombing Russia. The joke was not broadcast live, but was recorded and later leaked to the public. The Soviet Union criticized the joke, as did Reagan's opponent in the 1984 United States president... > [@Ronald Wilson Reagan](#): > > My fellow Americans, I’m pleased to tell you today that I’ve signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes. I thought you had a better grasp of history and irony than that. What’s wrong with you? This is about fighting ignorance, not making partisan goals. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/455 "2011-03-26T15:48:26Z")
Your maturity, decorum, and civility are a beacon to us all, **John**. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/456 "2011-03-26T16:07:26Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > The thing is, if he opposes all wars, why not just say that? Why make a charade of arguing the fine points of the justifications for this one and that one, when none of that really matters to him–no matter what the circumstances, no matter what the arguments, Raimondo is always going to oppose, right? I am not myself a pacifist, although I happen to respect it as a perfectly rational and honest belief, but one of the things about anti-killing for fun and profit folk, such as quakers or Jehovah’s Witnesses, is that they will — at length if you can’t avoid them — explain the rationale behind opposing each conflict so as to leave no room for the arguments of warmongers. It would be kind of silly for an organization called Antiwar to simply put up a webpage saying ‘ **Wars Are Bad** ’ and leave it at that. More Right-Wing anti-Obama Rethuglian Propaganda from the Capitalist Roader Running Dog Michael Moore’s site: _President Barack Obama announced his latest peace-through-bombs initiative last week – joining ongoing U.S. conflicts and proxy wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia – by declaring he could not “stand idly by when a tyrant tells his people that there will be no mercy, and … where innocent men and women face brutality and death at the hands of their own government.”_ _Within 24 hours of the announcement, more than 110 U.S. Tomahawk cruise missiles were fired into Libya, including the capital Tripoli, reportedly killing dozens of innocent civilians – as missiles, even the “smart” kind, are wont to do. According to The New York Times, allied warplanes with “brutal efficiency” bombed “tanks, missile launches and civilian cars, leaving a smoldering trail of wreckage that stretched for miles.”_ … _If protecting civilians from evil dictators was the goal, though – as opposed to, say, safeguarding natural resources and the investments of major oil companies – there’s an easier, safer way than aerial bombardment for the U.S. and its allies to consider: simply stop arming and propping up evil dictators. After all, Libya’s Muammar Gaddafi reaped the benefits from Western nations all too eager to cozy up to and rehabilitate the image of a dictator with oil, with those denouncing him today as a murderous tyrant just a matter of weeks ago selling him the very arms his regime has been using to suppress the rebellion against it._ _In 2009 alone, European governments – including Britain and France – sold Libya more than $470 million worth of weapons, including fighter jets, guns and bombs. And before it started calling for regime change, the Obama administration was working to provide the Libyan dictator another $77 million in weapons, on top of the $17 million it provided in 2009 and the $46 million the Bush administration provided in 2008._ Medea Benjamin, co-founder of Code Pink — **[Instead of Bombing Dictators, Stop Selling Them Bombs](http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/instead-of-bombing-dictators)** To be utterly fair, Obama’s selling Gaddafi $77 million in advanced weaponry would not improve his very minor league army, and certainly not against the United States Forces, which would be matching a slow tiny six-year-old against a 200lb 18-yr-old bully in the world’s playground, but was meant merely to help the Colonel maintain internal security. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/457 "2011-03-26T16:20:26Z")
The rebels have retaken one of the cities. How are we not directly involved with the war ? We are helping pick winners and losers . If we are turning it over to NATO, they will help the rebels fight Gadaffy. There is a story today about the West arming the rebels. You can not avoid the truth, the West is directly involved in a civil war. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/458 "2011-03-26T16:26:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You call that a temper tantrum? That’s pure GD material, baby. You should learn the difference between being offended and being uninterested in childish games. And perhaps you’d be well-served by learning the difference between real name-calling (in the Pit, no less), and pointing out that your prior reputation was perceived to be above falling for, and _using_, absurd **talking points** that make you sound like a Sarah Palin shill. “Dithered”? Really, John? “Dithered.” GMAFB. So yeah, when you act like a sheep, you can expect to be called a sheep. If that’s a childish game to you, so be it. > [@John Mace](#): > > It’ll be tough, but I think I’ll manage. I’ve got a session with my therapist later this afternoon, so she’ll be able to help me with the emotional trauma. That’s good to hear, because I worry about you and the affect the kool-aid has had on your formerly-intelligent brain. I wish you well. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/459 "2011-03-26T16:44:13Z")
You and I are whores, **Shayna**. **John** is a courtesan. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/460 "2011-03-26T16:52:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You and I are whores, **Shayna**. **John** is a courtesan. LOL! Seriously, where is the point system when you need it?! +1! And for the record, I’d rather be a whore in your court than a courtesan in John’s any day of the year. 🆒 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=24)