# Libya and Obama; it's the last straw for me **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212 "2011-03-19T00:40:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/461 "2011-03-26T17:25:30Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > LOL! Seriously, where is the point system when you need it?! > > +1! > > And for the record, I’d rather be a whore in your court than a courtesan in John’s any day of the year. 🆒 Nice circle-jerk y’all have going here. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/462 "2011-03-26T17:55:10Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Nice circle-jerk y’all have going here. Thanks. You, too, could be a member of the Righteous Whores. Too bad you won’t join. Your loss. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/463 "2011-03-26T18:20:52Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > That’s good to hear, because I worry about you and the affect the kool-aid has had on your formerly-intelligent brain. I wish you well. YOU are accusing _someone else_ of drinking the Kool-aid. Now that’s some funny shit! And of all people, **John Mace**? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/464 "2011-03-26T18:49:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > YOU are accusing _someone else_ of drinking the Kool-aid. Now that’s some funny shit! > > And of all people, **John Mace**? :rolleyes: Why yes, yes I am. I’m so glad I could amuse you. Don’t forget to tip your waiter. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/465 "2011-03-26T18:58:45Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > I am not myself a pacifist, although I happen to respect it as a perfectly rational and honest belief, but one of the things about anti-killing for fun and profit folk, such as quakers or Jehovah’s Witnesses, is that they will — at length if you can’t avoid them — explain the rationale behind opposing each conflict so as to leave no room for the arguments of warmongers. Well, it seems to me that those arguments should be arranged in such a way that they don’t give the impression that their authors would find the military action acceptable if only some detail of the political context were different. I find _that_ dishonest, even when I might agree with some of the specific points. The specific points are not helped by being argued by people who would be taking precisely the same position even if those arguments didn’t apply. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/466 "2011-03-26T18:58:50Z")
Oh, **John** ’s just having a dignity spasm, he’ll get over it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/467 "2011-03-26T20:50:41Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You can not avoid the truth, the West is directly involved in a civil war. Depends on how you define it, right? Is this an actual war between groups with basic, major, unreconciled differences of ethnicity or religion grounded deeply in history? Or is this just a revolt of a people against a dictator, by a populace with none of the aforesaid differences that can be expected to outlast said dictator, and which can be helped to establish and strengthen a nationwide democracy afterward? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/468 "2011-03-26T20:52:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, **John** ’s just having a dignity spasm, he’ll get over it. I picture him looking and sounding just like George Will. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/469 "2011-03-26T20:58:02Z")
My necktie hasn’t seen the light of day in… well, I’m not sure it’s ever seen the light of day. But I wish I had as much hair as George Will does! ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/470 "2011-03-26T21:11:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > My necktie hasn’t seen the light of day in… well, I’m not sure it’s ever seen the light of day. But I wish I had as much hair as George Will does! You just have a wide part, **John** ; don’t worry about it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/471 "2011-03-26T22:47:18Z")
More tea, anyone? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/472 "2011-03-26T23:12:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > More tea, anyone? Goes rather well with the BS-biscuits in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/473 "2011-03-27T00:17:36Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Depends on how you define it, right? Is this an actual war between groups with basic, major, unreconciled differences of ethnicity or religion grounded deeply in history? Or is this just a revolt of a people against a dictator, by a populace with none of the aforesaid differences that can be expected to outlast said dictator, and which can be helped to establish and strengthen a nationwide democracy afterward? People against the government. There are plenty of people siding with Gadaffy and his soldiers are fighting for him too. If it were Gadaffy against all the rest of Libya, it would have been over a long time ago. There have been pro Gadaffy demonstrations with people defending him to anybody who talked to them. This is a country cobbled together out of tribal fiefdoms. Who knows if they will accept the rule of a new national government. Who knows if there will be a fight to fill the power vacuum. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/474 "2011-03-27T00:26:36Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > There have been pro Gadaffy demonstrations with people defending him to anybody who talked to them. Well, to my knowledge there have been a handful of relatively modest events apparently staged by the regime. Few journalists have had much opportunity to talk to civilians in regime-controlled areas without security forces watching. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/475 "2011-03-27T00:43:10Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You can not avoid the truth, the West is directly involved in a civil war. It’s not a civil war, your majesty, it’s a revolution (Freely adapted from the duke of Liancourt on July 14, 1789) ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/476 "2011-03-27T15:49:51Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > People against the government. There are plenty of people siding with Gadaffy and his soldiers are fighting for him too. It is true his soldiers are fighting, but it is not known how many people support him. The uprisings of the West, like the martyred city Zaouia and the suppressions in Tripoli all say he has much opposition. > [@](#): > > This is a country cobbled together out of tribal fiefdoms. No it is not, it is a country that has excepting the deep desert been one country since before your country existed. It was one autonomous Vilayet of the Ottomans from 1551. > [@](#): > > Who knows if they will accept the rule of a new national government. There is no sign that other in Qaddafi propaganda there is great divisions in tribes. They exist, but they are not nations. > [@](#): > > Who knows if there will be a fight to fill the power vacuum. That is true, it is a big risk. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/477 "2011-03-27T16:56:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > True enough, they could have appointed an advisory committee to examine the possiblity of forming an exploratory study group, with an eye to a resolution affirming their approval. > > Tell you what, **John** , I’ll take your word, you look me right in the monitor and swear that you really believe this, I’ll accept that you do. But for a guy who delights in bitch-slapping us moonbats with stern, hard-headed, non-partisan realism, you’re slipping a gear, here. Getting back to this idea that Congress would have resisted this and turned into a partisan battle, the Senate had already passed a resolution calling for a [No Fly Zone](http://nationaljournal.com/congress/senate-passes-resolution-calling-for-no-fly-zone-over-libya-20110301?page=1) on March 1-- a few weeks before Obama took action. Non-binding, but still it gives you a sense of where Congress was on this. Guess how many Republicans voted against that? None. It passed unanimously. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/478 "2011-03-27T17:37:46Z")
How long did it take, **John**? No snark there, I don’t know. As it happened, the air strikes were just in the very nick of time, any further delay would have resulted in massacre. (That was the thrust of my sarcasm, slow motion action rather than resistance. Rather surprised you missed that.) And was this before or after he didn’t consult Congress? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/479 "2011-03-27T17:47:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How long did it take, **John**? No snark there, I don’t know. As it happened, the air strikes were just in the very nick of time, any further delay would have resulted in massacre. (That was the thrust of my sarcasm, slow motion action rather than resistance. Rather surprised you missed that.) > > And was this before or after he didn’t consult Congress? He could have done this concurrently with getting the UNSC and Arab League to agree. I don’t see any reason to think that Congress couldn’t act as quickly. Just send the Senate bill over to the House for a vote. The Senate is the slow, deliberative body with arcane byzantine rules to allow legislation to move at a glacial pace. That hurdle was already passed. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/480 "2011-03-27T17:58:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He could have done this concurrently with getting the UNSC and Arab League to agree. I don’t see any reason to think that Congress couldn’t act as quickly. Just send the Senate bill over to the House for a vote. The Senate is the slow, deliberative body with arcane byzantine rules to allow legislation to move at a glacial pace. That hurdle was already passed. For the record, short of a declaration of war, I would still disapprove of this action even if Congress approved it. For that matter, I’d not be happy about a declaration of war either. However, at that point, I’d have no choice but to get on board. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=25)