# Libya and Obama; it's the last straw for me **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212 "2011-03-19T00:40:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/41 "2011-03-19T17:36:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yes, I should have mentioned both because of the similarities. > > Well, it does look like the French and British are taking the lead so far, but I still am given pause by the idea that the UN can intervene in the internal affairs of a country. Not that I worry it could happen to a “real” power, like the US, but it does seem to violate the UN charter. I thought the purpose of the UN was as a peacekeeping organization? If they vote to intervene militarily (as in Iraq and Bosnia) in the interests of keeping the peace, does that violate the charter? I admit I have not read that document. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/42 "2011-03-19T17:42:09Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I thought the purpose of the UN was as a peacekeeping organization? It isn’t, and never was. The UN is a building on the East Side of Manhattan where nations meet to further their own agendas. I’m surprised people think it was ever something else. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/43 "2011-03-19T17:47:26Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It isn’t, and never was. > > The UN is a building on the East Side of Manhattan where nations meet to further their own agendas. I’m surprised people think it was ever something else. Your cynicism (and possibly correct view) aside, is not the _stated purpose_ of the UN as noted above, and doesn’t this intervention fall under its _stated purpose_? Is that clear enough, or do you wish to continue to vent? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/44 "2011-03-19T17:53:43Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I thought the purpose of the UN was as a peacekeeping organization? If they vote to intervene militarily (as in Iraq and Bosnia) in the interests of keeping the peace, does that violate the charter? I admit I have not read that document. Did the UNSC authorize the bombing of Serbia? I don’t think so. The authorization for the Gulf War involved the use of force against one country that had invaded another. In this case, we are talking about the internal affairs of a sovereign country. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/45 "2011-03-19T18:08:57Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Do you folks think that the rebels took Benghazi bloodlessly? No, but they weren’t “rebels” and they weren’t “taking” anything until after Gaddafi started shooting peaceful demonstrators. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/46 "2011-03-19T18:15:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Did the UNSC authorize the bombing of Serbia? I don’t think so. > > The authorization for the Gulf War involved the use of force against one country that had invaded another. In this case, we are talking about the internal affairs of a sovereign country. Can you reference the part of the charter where this is forbidden? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/47 "2011-03-19T18:45:34Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Do you folks think that the rebels took Benghazi bloodlessly? > [@spark240](#): > > No, but they weren’t “rebels” and they weren’t “taking” anything until after Gaddafi started shooting peaceful demonstrators. What were the rebels supposed to do, ask the crazy dictator real super nicely? ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/48 "2011-03-19T19:06:26Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Who got us into Vietnam in the first place again? Oh right: Eisenhower. Please do go on. This tidbit makes you look incredibly stupid. 9 Americans died in Vietnam while Eisenhower was president. Nine. You’re embarrassing yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/49 "2011-03-19T19:32:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Did the UNSC authorize the bombing of Serbia? I don’t think so. They did not. The NATO bombing of Serbia is, however, pretty much the only time the international community successfully stopped internal genocidal action. In Bosnia, the UN mandate forbade their soldiers from engaging in actual offensive action. They were there as observers and escorts for humanitarian aid. Their role in Rwanda was similar. The UN, in general, does not have a good record in actually preventing human rights violations precisely because people are reluctant to interfere with a nation’s internal affairs. Why are they okaying intervention in Libya? My guess is that it is because (warning: seat of my pants policy analysis to follow): 1. Ghadaffi’s actions are so blatantly a violation of international human rights norms, and people don’t want to look like a bunch of gits standing around twiddling their thumbs while people die. 2. Continuing conflict in Libya could destabilize the region. Two of Libya’s neighbors overthrew longterm dictators in the last few months, and there is no guarantee that Tunisia and Egypt will actually be able to create stable democratic governments. Having a chaotic situation next door will not help. 3. Oil. The US only gets a small percentage of oil from Libya, but Europe gets a lot more, and you’ll notice that it’s France and Britain who have been the most proactive. The situation is getting pretty bad in both Yemen and Bahrain, but those countries are under the Saudi sphere of influence and the equation is quite different. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/50 "2011-03-19T19:36:12Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Can you reference the part of the charter where this is forbidden? I don’t mean to say it is explicitly forbidden by the charter, but I’m asking if it is allowed. If it’s not allowed, then it’s forbidden. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/51 "2011-03-19T19:42:58Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > There’s no indication of genocide in Libya; it’s a simple civil war. It’s the civilians rising up against the Army. It’s a perfectly valid act of war for a government to attack the civilians that are taking military action against it. > > The vote of the U.S. for the no-fly zone was bullshit; the participation of the U.S. in enforcing it will be bullshit. It’s none of our fucking business. > > And without troops on the ground, it won’t make any fucking difference. It’s just fucking stupid! Qaddaffi doesn’t _need_ aircraft. He’s solidified the support of Libya’s Army and that army is rolling over the rebels. That won’t be stopped with a no-fly zone, yet that zone will linger for years, until someday we decide that he is hiding weapons of mass destruction somewhere south, west, north, east of Tripoli. > > I’m absolutely astonished that Obama, of all people, with his unique life experience, has once again caved in to the right. Instead of standing foursquare and stalwart for, “It’s none of our business,” he’s wiffled and waffled and now the U.S. is sticking our foot in the tar. When will we extricate ourselves from this one? > > Mr. President, grow some balls, for once, and act like someone that has beliefs and stands by them against all comers. You’re a fucking wimp. You didn’t get elected because we believed you’d be a wimp, and I, for one, will not cast a vote for you in 2012 if you continue to be a wimp. > > You were elected because we believed you would be a strong, forceful, and resolute President who would fight for what he thought was right. We were, it appears, wrong. This just proves how hard it is to be president. In other threads he is being hammered because he has not gone in alone to protect "freedom fighters’ against Gadaffy. People are upset that he has waited so long. The fact that every other democracy has also waited seems to make no difference. The fact that we have 2 wars going on and are spending tons on wars does not matter either. They claim he is weak and dithering. Now, after a UN resolution, he has tepidly given support. But you think he has betrayed America. Crap he cannot win. I am a pacifist. I hate wars and injecting our military power across the globe. Iraq and Afghanistan sicken me. This one ,not so much. If he keeps troops out and does not spearhead the foray, them I will not be too disappointed. I will abhor the “collateral damage”. These are innocent humans in my book. But if Gadaffy actually commits to a cease fire with nobody getting killed, it will be a huge victory. ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/52 "2011-03-19T19:46:40Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The ones like Canada and Russia who don’t upset the oil supply lines are tolerated. The ones that threaten the oil supply lines or cost stability ,have to go. Libya, Venezuela, Iraq, and Iran are all members of OPEC. As such, they have quotas to meet. While they may throw verbal barbs, they haven’t made material threats to the oil supply since the '70s. Russia, on the other hand, has manipulated natural gas exports. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/53 "2011-03-19T20:10:00Z")
Well, it appears we have begun launching missiles on Tripoli. Does that make everybody feel better? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/54 "2011-03-19T20:25:19Z")
Ugh. When do we start bombing Iran, Syria, Bahrain…? ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/55 "2011-03-19T20:28:57Z")
Later this afternoon. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/56 "2011-03-19T20:33:42Z")
At least then we’d be consistent! ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/57 "2011-03-19T20:54:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t mean to say it is explicitly forbidden by the charter, but I’m asking if it is allowed. If it’s not allowed, then it’s forbidden. Okay, can you link to what is allowed then? I’m not trying to be a dick; I’m just curious. I am completely against getting involved in the Middle East and always have been. It’s a morass from which there is little hope of escaping, let alone winning a war in. They don’t respect diplomacy, only money and power. The more they can bleed off the coffers of the west, the happier they are, and we’ve been pouring cash into that shithole for way too many decades. I’m all for letting them fight their own damned battles, a la Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/58 "2011-03-19T20:59:12Z")
I’m asking if it’s allowed. You can find the charter on wikipedia, or at least a link to it. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/59 "2011-03-19T21:22:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m asking if it’s allowed. You can find the charter on wikipedia, or at least a link to it. They did it, didn’t they? That means it’s allowed. (I’m being a little facetious, but not much.) ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/60 "2011-03-19T21:28:47Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > This just proves how hard it is to be president. In other threads he is being hammered because he has not gone in alone to protect "freedom fighters’ against Gadaffy. People are upset that he has waited so long. The fact that every other democracy has also waited seems to make no difference. The fact that we have 2 wars going on and are spending tons on wars does not matter either. They claim he is weak and dithering. > Now, after a UN resolution, he has tepidly given support. But you think he has betrayed America. Crap he cannot win. > I am a pacifist. I hate wars and injecting our military power across the globe. Iraq and Afghanistan sicken me. This one ,not so much. If he keeps troops out and does not spearhead the foray, them I will not be too disappointed. I will abhor the “collateral damage”. These are innocent humans in my book. > But if Gadaffy actually commits to a cease fire with nobody getting killed, it will be a huge victory. War is shitty, Civil war inside Libya is shitty, but that doesn’t make it any shittier than all the other places we’ve ignored. Here’s the question, if the rebels go back on the offensive after we hammer Gaddafi’s forces do we bomb the piss out of them as well? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=4)