# Libya and Obama; it's the last straw for me **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212 "2011-03-19T00:40:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/61 "2011-03-19T21:29:06Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > They did it, didn’t they? That means it’s allowed. > > (I’m being a little facetious, but not much.) Yes, I know. The great powers pretty much get to do whatever they want. No wonder so many in the not-great-powers countries hate us. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/62 "2011-03-19T21:36:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The great powers pretty much get to do whatever they want. No wonder so many in the not-great-powers countries hate us. Is there any notable criticism of the present action from any of those countries? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/63 "2011-03-19T21:39:54Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Is there any notable criticism of the present action from any of those countries? Give it time. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/64 "2011-03-19T22:05:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yes, I know. The great powers pretty much get to do whatever they want. The not-great-powers pretty much do whatever they choose, too. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/65 "2011-03-19T22:12:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m asking if it’s allowed. You can find the charter on wikipedia, or at least a link to it. John, the UN is acting under the “Responsibility to Protect” norm, which is codified in [Security Council resolution 1674](http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2006/sc8710.doc.htm), passed unanimously by the UNSC in 2006. This lists four reasons for international intervention in domestic affairs of a state: genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity and ethnic cleansing. I think they’re defining Qaddafi’s actions as “crimes against humanity.” You could argue with that classification, but the UN is not acting counter to their stated and adapted principles. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/66 "2011-03-19T22:17:07Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > Libya, Venezuela, Iraq, and Iran are all members of OPEC. As such, they have quotas to meet. While they may throw verbal barbs, they haven’t made material threats to the oil supply since the '70s. Russia, on the other hand, has manipulated natural gas exports. Venezuela has several times. That is why you should hate them. Iran is sitting on our oil. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/67 "2011-03-19T22:21:18Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > John, the UN is acting under the “Responsibility to Protect” norm, which is codified in [Security Council resolution 1674](http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2006/sc8710.doc.htm), passed unanimously by the UNSC in 2006. This lists four reasons for international intervention in domestic affairs of a state: genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity and ethnic cleansing. > > I think they’re defining Qaddafi’s actions as “crimes against humanity.” You could argue with that classification, but the UN is not acting counter to their stated and adapted principles. Yes, I would argue against that classification. And just because something was passed by the UNSC does not make it part of the UN Charter. For that, we’d need to have it voted on by the General Assembly. ---
**Author:** ![dedonarrival](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@dedonarrival](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dedonarrival)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/68 "2011-03-19T22:31:06Z")
Proud tears come to my eyes as again America leads another crusade against evil. No more sleepless nights of anguish in concern for the suffering of the internationally beloved Libyan people. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/69 "2011-03-19T22:37:19Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > War is shitty, Civil war inside Libya is shitty, but that doesn’t make it any shittier than all the other places we’ve ignored. > > Here’s the question, if the rebels go back on the offensive after we hammer Gaddafi’s forces do we bomb the piss out of them as well? No. We support people wanting to be free against murderous dictators because it is the right thibg to do. Just for the sheer novelty value if nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/70 "2011-03-19T22:37:42Z")
> [@dedonarrival](#): > > Proud tears come to my eyes as again America leads another crusade against evil. No more sleepless nights of anguish in concern for the suffering of the internationally beloved Libyan people. Another? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/71 "2011-03-19T22:42:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Ugh. When do we start bombing Iran, Syria, Bahrain…? Just because you cannot do everything it does mean you can do nothing. Geography and circumstance means we can act in Libya and it is in tune with our ‘yay, freedom’ values to do so. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/72 "2011-03-19T22:42:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > …just because something was passed by the UNSC does not make it part of the UN Charter. For that, we’d need to have it voted on by the General Assembly. It’s my impression that the structure of the organization makes such a vote pretty much irrelevant to UN sponsored military action. Maybe I’m wrong about this, but if the Security Council wants to take action, it doesn’t really matter if the entire rest of the member nations vote against it. Effectively, when the SC decided that those four categories can be legitimately be considered as violative of international peace and security, military intervention is covered by [Chapter 7](http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter7.shtml) of the charter. Not a defense of this particular action in terms of its necessity. I’m just saying it’s not realistically outside of the UN charter. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/73 "2011-03-19T22:45:30Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Just because you cannot do everything it does mean you can do nothing. Geography and circumstance means we can act in Libya and it is in tune with our ‘yay, freedom’ values to do so. No, we don’t care so much about human rights in countries with regimes that are friendly to us. That’s the only difference. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/74 "2011-03-19T22:53:11Z")
Sometimes a dash of cold, cyncial _realpolitik_ can be refreshing. Especially when warped and twisted to a good cause. This probably won’t work. But it might. So far, we are investing very little, mostly we are offering support to the French and British. We have the support of the Arab League, about the only legitimate body of Ghaddafi’s neighbors available. For once, we are on the right side of this. Plus, it fosters an image of a new and improved America to those Muslims we would sorely like to get along with. America is different, there’s a new _sharif_ in town, and his name is Barrack. Maybe that’s just an illusion, but its a darned useful one. Is it hypocritical not to free Yeman and Bahrain, seeing as how we’re so all high and mighty? OK, maybe so, likely so, but it is not good enough reason to abstain because: it just _might_ work. Its still a gamble. But a puny investment might bring huge rewards, not least of which is humanitarian. We should do this thing. But no ground troops. And I do not want to hear any crap about protecting our embassy with a couple of armored divisions. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/75 "2011-03-19T22:58:34Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Just because you cannot do everything it does mean you can do nothing. Geography and circumstance means we can act in Libya and it is in tune with our ‘yay, freedom’ values to do so. Nonsense. Complete and arrant nonsense. A civil war in Libya is the business of no one except the Libyans. The same as the civil wars in Uganda, the Congo, Sri Lanka, etc. We’re only doing this because it’s politically expedient to take out Qaddaffi. It’s a betrayal of what at least used to be our nation’s values. It’s none of our business who rules Libya. If the French, the Italians, the Arab League want to do something about it, that’s up to them. It’s none of their business either, but I have no standing with those nations. I do have standing with the United States and with Canada, and our activities are completely an act of sticking our nose in where it has no business being. Our actions are wrong, and are deplorable and unjustified. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/76 "2011-03-19T22:58:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, we don’t care so much about human rights in countries with regimes that are friendly to us. So they only logical conclusion is that you shouldn’t care about human rights anywhere? There are worse sins than hypocracy. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/77 "2011-03-19T23:02:32Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > No. We support people wanting to be free against murderous dictators because it is the right thibg to do. Just for the sheer novelty value if nothing else. So let me make sure I understand Libyan Government putting down a rebel uprising = bad Rebels attacking = good I see I see… I see that a Libyan civil war is still none of our F’ing business That said, if the UN wants to provide the rebels with arms (maybe at a cheap discount) and let them take matters into their own hands. So be it. The rebels win with honor and life goes on. UN bombing…not so good. This will come back to haunt them as pics of the unavoidable civilian deaths are distributed and the hate for Gadaffi is replaced with hate for the UN, and the US in particular. How many times do we have to see this scenario play out before we learn to MYOB? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/78 "2011-03-19T23:04:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, we don’t care so much about human rights in countries with regimes that are friendly to us. That’s the only difference. Meh. Such is life. In this case at least, our coalition of the willing involves other military powers and we’re acting with the blessing of the UN and the support of more than just England. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/79 "2011-03-19T23:10:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > ``` > Sometimes a dash of cold, cyncial realpolitik can be refreshing. Especially when warped and twisted to a good cause. > > ``` > > This probably won’t work. But it might. So far, we are investing very little, mostly we are offering support to the French and British. We have the support of the Arab League, about the only legitimate body of Ghaddafi’s neighbors available. For once, we are on the right side of this. > > Plus, it fosters an image of a new and improved America to those Muslims we would sorely like to get along with. America is different, there’s a new sharif in town, and his name is Barrack. Maybe that’s just an illusion, but its a darned useful one. > > Is it hypocritical not to free Yeman and Bahrain, seeing as how we’re so all high and mighty? OK, maybe so, likely so, but it is not good enough reason to abstain because: it just might work. > > Its still a gamble. But a puny investment might bring huge rewards, not least of which is humanitarian. We should do this thing. But no ground troops. And I do not want to hear any crap about protecting our embassy with a couple of armored divisions. This is based on your vast knowledge of Libyan history and culture? Small risk? This guy is a nuttier than Km Jong Il. I say let them fight it out and if the Europeans want to do so something, so be it. We are not playing just a supporting role, here. We’re the big dog in this fight, and the bombs have Made-In-USA on them. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/80 "2011-03-19T23:11:46Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > It’s a betrayal of what at least used to be our nation’s values. It’s none of our business who rules Libya. When was that time of principled non-interventionism, again? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=5)