# Libya and Obama; it's the last straw for me **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212 "2011-03-19T00:40:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/81 "2011-03-19T23:13:35Z")
How is this all supposed to end? The Libyans are not a united people. There’s going to be a civil war, so what do we do then? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/82 "2011-03-19T23:15:47Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > When was that time of principled non-interventionism, again? So, that makes it OK? Who we bombing tomorrow? We could always drop a few on Nigeria. Civil war going on there as well, plus vast oil reserves! ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/83 "2011-03-19T23:35:21Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > When was that time of principled non-interventionism, again? Yeah, I’m yet again reminded of [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag6DtzRUF5U#t=0m09) scene from _The Jerk_. ☹ CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/84 "2011-03-19T23:39:13Z")
Dear Osama: We hope you are doing well. We know you’ve gotten tired of hunkering down in Pakistan, and we never really let you take hold in Iraq. So, can we interest you in an Arab country, with oil, that will make a nice little failed state and a good base for your North African operations? Sincerely, The West ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/85 "2011-03-19T23:41:44Z")
Are you done with this yet? It’s getting a little silly. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/86 "2011-03-19T23:48:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > This is based on your vast knowledge of Libyan history and culture?.. Nothing compared to yours, **John** , on any subject, I am sure, but I did not intend to make extravagant claims. Nonetheless, with all due awe… > [@](#): > > …Small risk? This guy is a nuttier than Km Kong Il. I say let them fight it out and if the Europeans want to do so something, so be it. We are not playing just a supporting role, here. We’re the big dog in this fight, and the bombs have Made-In-USA on them. More risk than Grenada, less than Iraq. Definitely worth it so far, since all we have actually deployed are stern words and threats. Now, its not likely such words and threats will do the trick, but stranger things have happened. What I would like to know more about is his army. I have scraps of information that suggest his army is largely mercenary, and not reflective of the population, as compared to Egypt, made up of conscripts that identified with the population. Assuming that is so, the downside is they are likely to be unsympathetic and professional, far better equipped and trained than the rebels. Being better equipped and trained, they could slaughter their opposition. Being unsympathetic, they very well might. But rebels are more dedicated, by and large, and that matters. But the other guys have armor, and that _really_ matters. However, if that armor starts falling prey to missiles and gun ships, if the Army starts taking some serious casualties… History shows that under such stress, armies often re-examine their priorities. Their loyalties. The rebels have no such option, and are not so tempted. Besides, I remember a baby super-power, struggling to be born, and it was France, in a fit of snotty condescension, saved our bacon. We thanked them then, and still do, naming our national dish, freedom fries, in their honor! That’s a true fact, you could look it up. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/87 "2011-03-20T00:15:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > More risk than Grenada, less than Iraq. Well, that narrows it down! > [@](#): > > Definitely worth it so far, since all we have actually deployed are stern words and threats. Now, its not likely such words and threats will do the trick, but stranger things have happened. I really don’t know what to say about that other than perhaps you haven’t seen the news that we starting bombing today. That’s a little more than “stern words and threats”. > [@](#): > > What I would like to know more about is his army. I have scraps of information that suggest his army is largely mercenary, and not reflective of the population, as compared to Egypt, made up of conscripts that identified with the population. Assuming that is so, the downside is they are likely to be unsympathetic and professional, far better equipped and trained than the rebels. Being better equipped and trained, they could slaughter their opposition. Being unsympathetic, they very well might. But it’s more than just that. Libya has it’s own internal divisions (ethnic, tribal, and geographic) that make it ripe for civil war. What do we do then? Whose side do we pick when this turns into Yugoslavia? > [@](#): > > But rebels are more dedicated, by and large, and that matters. But the other guys have armor, and that _really_ matters. However, if that armor starts falling prey to missiles and gun ships, if the Army starts taking some serious casualties… > > History shows that under such stress, armies often re-examine their priorities. Their loyalties. The rebels have no such option, and are not so tempted. > > Besides, I remember a baby super-power, struggling to be born, and it was France, in a fit of snotty condescension, saved our bacon. We thanked them then, and still do, naming our national dish, freedom fries, in their honor! That’s a true fact, you could look it up. Well, the French were hardly altruistic. They were siding against the British, not with us. But it doesn’t really matter, unless you’re appealing to some sort of War Karma-- that we need to support revolutions because some country once supported ours. I’m sick and tired of getting involved in the Arab and Muslim world. I’m sick of US soldiers dying in those countries, and I’m sick of US soldiers killing civilians there. Let the Europeans take care if this, if it needs taking care of. We have no problem sidling up with dictators all over the world as long as we can do business with them. There’s nothing special about Libya, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with our national security interests. At least it doesn’t now. Who knows what will emerge from a civil war there, and I want no part of it. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/88 "2011-03-20T00:25:44Z")
Come on, American Presidents aren’t real Presidents until they’ve launched a few Cruise missiles at somebody. It’s now a rite of office, like the swearing-in. Seriously though, what’s the expected outcome here? Regime change is apparently off the table, so what happens? After a few bombs Gaddafi says, OK, I’ll call the dogs off my people, can I have my country back now? The West retires, feeling virtuous and triumphant. Gaddafi bides his time and eventually his secret police perform by stealth what the West prevented his army from doing. The rebels must know full well that Gaddafi’s word is worthless. The only outcome that will satisfy them is his ousting or the division of the country. The West clearly won’t deliver that. The whole thing is a charade to salve the Western conscience and if I were a rebel in Benghazi I’d be packing my bags for Egypt now. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/89 "2011-03-20T00:31:35Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Come on, American Presidents aren’t real Presidents until they’ve launched a few Cruise missiles at somebody. It’s now a rite of office, like the swearing-in. Which, as I recall, didn’t go off according to plan. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/90 "2011-03-20T00:40:59Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > The whole thing is a charade to salve the Western conscience and if I were a rebel in Benghazi I’d be packing my bags for Egypt now. Watching the news right now, that’s exactly what is happening. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/91 "2011-03-20T01:28:40Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Mr. President, grow some balls, for once, and act like someone that has beliefs and stands by them against all comers. You’re a fucking wimp. You didn’t get elected because we believed you’d be a wimp, and I, for one, will not cast a vote for you in 2012 if you continue to be a wimp. Yes, because the way to prevent future incursions into other countries is to vote Republican :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/92 "2011-03-20T01:45:31Z")
As a vehemently anti-war, leftist liberal, I was initially inclined to angrily denouncing this as none of our business, too. How is what’s happening in Libya any interest of the U.S.? Why should we get involved there, if not in Yemen, Tunisia, Egypt, Iran, Bahrain? But I’ve come around on this. First, what’s happening in Libya isn’t a simple civil war. It’s a dictator threatening annihilation of his citizens, and beginning the follow-through on that threat, forcing formerly peaceful protesters to take up whatever arms they could find to protect themselves. Had the Jews in Germany been able to do the same, would we not have bothered to protect them from their government’s mass extermination efforts? Second, we aren’t “invading”, nor will we “invade”, which is one way this can be differentiated from the Iraq debacle. Third, the Yememis, Tunisians, Egyptians, Iranians and Bahrainians haven’t asked for our help; the Libyans _have_. When victims ask for your help, do you turn your back because it’s none of your business? Do you walk past a rape in progress while the victim is begging you to help because it’s none of your business? Fourth, we aren’t the instigators here, the French and British are. _They_ have a vested interest in stability in that region. When we asked for their support in our battle against Saddam in Iraq, they backed us up. They’re now asking us to back _them_ up. Do we turn down our allies when they didn’t turn _us_ down? Should we not have their back when they had ours? And finally, we have the full support of the Arab League here. We have an opportunity to forge some stronger alliances in places where they’re badly needed. We have an opportunity to not look like Cowboys killing Arabs, but friends helping _save_ Arabs. And let’s be honest, even if it doesn’t look much different to _us_, it _does_ look entirely different to _them_. And especially in international relations, perception is reality. I hope it’s short and sweet. I hope there is minimal involvement on our part and that we don’t lose any American lives. I hope we can use this opportunity to help our allies to the ultimate benefit of everyone, especially the people of Libya. I voted for Barack Obama because I found him to be a _thoughtful_ person. I found him to be pragmatic. I _trusted_ him to be our country’s Commander in Chief because of those qualities. He hasn’t given me any reason to have lost trust in his thoughtfulness or pragmatism, so I have to trust that he did not make this decision lightly, having weighed all the pros and cons. Ultimately, I don’t _like_ it, but I think we’ve done the right thing here. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/93 "2011-03-20T02:03:00Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > As a vehemently anti-war, leftist liberal, I was initially inclined to angrily denouncing this as none of our business, too. > > How is what’s happening in Libya any interest of the U.S.? Why should we get involved there, if not in Yemen, Tunisia, Egypt, Iran, Bahrain? > > But I’ve come around on this. First, what’s happening in Libya isn’t a simple civil war. It’s a dictator threatening annihilation of his citizens, and beginning the follow-through on that threat, forcing formerly peaceful protesters to take up whatever arms they could find to protect themselves. Had the Jews in Germany been able to do the same, would we not have bothered to protect them from their government’s mass extermination efforts? Not unique to Libya. > [@](#): > > Second, we aren’t “invading”, nor will we “invade”, which is one way this can be differentiated from the Iraq debacle. Ditto. > [@](#): > > Third, the Yememis, Tunisians, Egyptians, Iranians and Bahrainians haven’t asked for our help; the Libyans _have_. When victims ask for your help, do you turn your back because it’s none of your business? Do you walk past a rape in progress while the victim is begging you to help because it’s none of your business? The Libyans aren’t the only ones who asked us to help. > [@](#): > > Fourth, we aren’t the instigators here, the French and British are. _They_ have a vested interest in stability in that region. When we asked for their support in our battle against Saddam in Iraq, they backed us up. They’re now asking us to back _them_ up. Do we turn down our allies when they didn’t turn _us_ down? Should we not have their back when they had ours? No, the French didn’t. > [@](#): > > And finally, we have the full support of the Arab League here. We have an opportunity to forge some stronger alliances in places where they’re badly needed. We have an opportunity to not look like Cowboys killing Arabs, but friends helping _save_ Arabs. And let’s be honest, even if it doesn’t look much different to _us_, it _does_ look entirely different to _them_. And especially in international relations, perception is reality. We don’t have any actual support from the Arab League. Just their invitation for us to their dirty work. A few countries may throw a bone into the effort, but it’s Western bombs dropping on Libya. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/94 "2011-03-20T02:18:56Z")
I’m no Obama fan, to say the least. But that means I need to do what I would have wanted those who were not Bush fans to do, a few years back. And that is to ask the questions that should have been asked before Iraq, and Grenada, and Panama, and Afghanistan, and Viet Nam, and so on. [ul][li]What is our goal here? _Specifically._[/li][li]How are we going to achieve that goal?[/li][li]How much of our resources are we going to commit?[/li][li]How will we know when we have reached the goal?[/li][li]How will we know if we aren’t going to reach it? [/li][li]What is our exit strategy whether we reach the goal or not? [/ul][/li]I am not asking this to embarrass Obama. I have not made up my mind as to whether this is a good thing to intervene, or not. But I sure as hell would like to hear the answers to those questions to help me decide. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/95 "2011-03-20T02:24:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not unique to Libya. > Ditto. > The Libyans aren’t the only ones who asked us to help. So your answer is to do nothing. President Obama’s answer was to support our allies in the region. I think I’ll trust his judgment over yours. > [@John Mace](#): > > No, the French didn’t. Our allies have asked us to back them up. I contend we cannot and should not say no. You apparently believe otherwise. I’ll stick with the President on this one, too. > [@John Mace](#): > > We don’t have any actual support from the Arab League. Just their invitation for us to their dirty work. A few countries may throw a bone into the effort, but it’s Western bombs dropping on Libya. Yes we do have their support. You don’t get your own definition of what support means. They voted nearly unanimously to enforce the no-fly zone over Libya, which is the [exact opposite](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2882851.stm) of what they did when we illegally invaded Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/96 "2011-03-20T02:26:30Z")
**Shayna** ’s post made me think of why I think Obama agreed to this. A lot of our partners in Afghanistan are getting cold feet, and he had to scratch a few backs so his would get scratched in return. Look for more support for our little adventure in that country in the future. **Shayna** : You didn’t say “support”, you said “full support”. What does “full support” mean to you? Permission? If that’s what you meant then fine. We have their permission for us to do their dirty work. Does that make you feel better? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/97 "2011-03-20T02:50:16Z")
No, John, nothing about this makes me feel better. But I find legitimate reasons for our involvement that go beyond the “imminent threat” argument" that Bush lied to use to get us mired in Iraq. We have allies who have asked for our help. In a complete 180 from their opinion on Iraq, the Arab League is nearly unanimous in wanting us in there this time. We won’t be seen as unwanted invaders, but invited supporters. Your mileage is free to vary. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/98 "2011-03-20T02:58:48Z")
**Shayna** , do you believe my questions should be answered before we get involved? Do you think they have been? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/99 "2011-03-20T03:05:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **Shayna** , do you believe my questions should be answered before we get involved? Do you think they have been? > > Regards, > Shodan Has it occurred to you that answering your questions in public would be pretty stupid and give Kah-Daffy the upper hand in determining his strategy? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/100 "2011-03-20T03:10:13Z")
Cripes, you’re an idiot. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=6)