# Libya and Obama; it's the last straw for me **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212 "2011-03-19T00:40:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/121 "2011-03-20T14:36:34Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Oh, for Pete’s sake, you _are_ an idiot. What difference would it make if he knew our goals? At least then, somebody would. Right now, the war plan might as well be buried in a jar in the back lawn of the White House. If the desired results and potential aftermaths of a military action cannot be clearly articulated, it’s probably not one that should be taken. > > And, hell, maybe Qaddaffi would agree! “OK, you want me to leave Benghazi alone? Deal. They can have it. I’ll just sit here and continue to rule the rest of the country.” Then we can declare victory, hang a “Mission Accomplished” banner across Pennsylvania Avenue, and bask in our own goodness. > **[Libya UN Resolution 1973: Text analysed](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12782972)** > > As the UN passes a resolution authorising "all necessary measures" to protect civilians in Libya, BBC diplomatic correspondent Jonathan Marcus deciphers its precise meaning. The above link has a fairly detailed breakdown of the resolution. Let’s look at what info is reasonable to be public: > [@Shodan](#): > > What is our goal here? _Specifically._ Read the UN resolution. > [@](#): > > How are we going to achieve that goal? Giving specific details of our mission plan to the public is stupid. It would allow Libya to marshal its defenses. As it is we know that we’re providing logistical and missile support. Not landing troops or flying sorties over the ground. > [@](#): > > How much of our resources are we going to commit? Does it strike you as smart that a dictator would know exactly when we’re going to leave? “Oh, the Americans are very nearly their budgeted limit, let’s just hold on a bit more!” > [@](#): > > How will we know when we have reached the goal? Read the UN Resolution. > [@](#): > > How will we know if we aren’t going to reach it? Say if Kadaffi invents Weirding Modules? What do you exactly want to hear here? Goal: Protect civilians. How we know if we won’t reach goal: Civilians dead. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > What is our exit strategy whether we reach the goal or not? We are on boats. We will float away. This is a reasonable question I suppose, but as I said, we aren’t engaged very hard. I imagine the UN would have a position as peacekeepers and election supervisors if the regime is toppled. Are you opposed to US troops serving that purpose? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/122 "2011-03-20T14:51:18Z")
Some pre-coffee thoughts this morning: Well, more million$ are now evaporating from the national coffers in the form of missile strikes. I wonder if our conservative friends in congress will get their panties in a wad over this expenditure or if bombing people is okay in their book. Khadaffi is using human shields in his compound and vowing a “very long war” with the west. Perhaps, but he won’t live to see its end. Maybe they have cable TV where he’ll be going: allah news, allah time. When are we going to give equal bombing time to Bahrain and Yemen? If we continue to wait, we’ll be accused of bias. Launch, baby, launch! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/123 "2011-03-20T15:30:23Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Some pre-coffee thoughts this morning: > > Well, more million$ are now evaporating from the national coffers in the form of missile strikes. I wonder if our conservative friends in congress will get their panties in a wad over this expenditure or if bombing people is okay in their book. How much is that wonderful Arab League going to pony up for us getting rid of this guy that they all hate and have wanted out for a long time? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/124 "2011-03-20T15:36:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How much is that wonderful Arab League going to pony up for us getting rid of this guy that they all hate and have wanted out for a long time? From: [http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iRRC-Ij\_xoxpHpSxJd-LVDd1JHXQ?docId=999067b967b7412c83d7cce7921da560](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iRRC-Ij_xoxpHpSxJd-LVDd1JHXQ?docId=999067b967b7412c83d7cce7921da560) > [@](#): > > The Arab League’s support for a no-fly zone last week helped overcome reluctance in the West for action in Libya. The U.N. authorized not only a no-fly zone but also “all necessary measures” to protect civilians. > Amr Moussa says the military operations have gone beyond what the Arab League backed. I’d guess they aren’t in a mood to help with funding. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/125 "2011-03-20T16:16:51Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’d guess they aren’t in a mood to help with funding. Well, there’s a surprise Not only will they not be footing the bill to replace all those million $$ cruise missiles, they’ll also turnaround and use these attacks to fuel more hate for the west ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/126 "2011-03-20T16:45:40Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Well, there’s a surprise > > Not only will they not be footing the bill to replace all those million $$ cruise missiles, they’ll also turnaround and use these attacks to fuel more hate for the west Nownownow, let’s don’t be cynical. Ah hell, go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/127 "2011-03-20T16:50:18Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Nownownow, let’s don’t be cynical. Ah hell, go ahead. I think history is on my side on this one… ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/128 "2011-03-20T17:20:36Z")
I have to say that on first blush, Obama’s hawkish statement about Libya gave me pause. But I’m sure there was a lot of back-channel chatter going on with the real hawks in all this, England and France. Obama probably told them: ahhh look; we’ll support youse guys if you want to pound the shit out of Libya in your eternal quest for dominance in North Africa, even though I have no idea WTF you want with that sweltering hellhole, but we are not/not committing aircraft or ground troops to yet another tarpit. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/129 "2011-03-20T17:32:00Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I have to say that on first blush, Obama’s hawkish statement about Libya gave me pause. But I’m sure there was a lot of back-channel chatter going on with the real hawks in all this, England and France. Obama probably told them: ahhh look; we’ll support youse guys if you want to pound the shit out of Libya in your eternal quest for dominance in North Africa, even though I have no idea WTF you want with that sweltering hellhole, but we are not/not committing aircraft or ground troops to yet another tarpit. We’ll just sit back here on our ships and kill as many civilians with our million $$ cruise missiles ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/130 "2011-03-20T17:42:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I won’t argue that this is better than our invasion of Iraq. But that’s a really low bar to measure against. Still, how is this in our strategic interest? What are we trying to accomplish, and how does this military action aid in accomplishing that goal? > [@Frank](#): > > If the British jump off a cliff, should we too? > > It would have been better if the allies had not backed us up. A good friend would have said, “Whoa, wait a minute, man. Think about it.” France did just that, and got nothing but abuse in return. > > We should be playing the role of France this time. If I _personally_ had a vote, I would have voted that we play France. I think you guys are misunderstanding my position. I don’t _approve_ of this action, but I’m trying to _understand_ this action from a perspective that’s not “military action = always bad” and “military action = must always protect our own lives”. [ul] [li]We have allies in that region whose safety and stability are at risk.[/li][li]We have allies in that region who have supported our military efforts when it was not in their personal interest to pursue _our_ goals.[/li][li]Although we also have allies who have not always supported our military objectives, International Relations is above my pay grade, and apparently our President and Secretary of State believe we should be in there backing up our allies on this one. I didn’t trust GWB in the regard, and I saw right through Powell’s fake slide show to the UN re Iraq, but Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have a better track record than those two, so I’m more apt to rely on their superior knowledge than my own.[/li][li]The Arab League voted 20-2 in favor of Western intervention in this case. I believe that from an International Relations perspective that that has to mean something. They want us to do something about this situation and we should not be seen as a country that will only use our military to kill Arabs, but will also use it to protect Arabs when they ask us to, regardless how much of their own money or military they add to the mix. [/li][li]There are several other countries in the region that are teetering on the precipice, including ones where the governments are killing innocent protesters. Allowing Libya to continue mass murdering civilians unabated could send that entire region into utter chaos. Again, above my pay grade, but it appears as if Libya is the big player that could destabilize the entire region, so that’s where the primary focus needs to be at this moment, as opposed to Bahrain, Yemen and Tunisia (though I’m just as sick about those countries as Libya).[/li][/ul] > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do we want Kadhaffi out? What replaces him? Do we just want to restore the status quo ante? > > What happens when Libya descends into civil war? Is that good or bad for us? > > I honestly don’t know. Not necessarily. I don’t know. Ya got me. Nothing good. Bad. I also don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/131 "2011-03-20T19:44:00Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Where did I say I would vote Republican? 😕 You said you wouldn’t vote for him in 2012 if he continues to be a wimp. A non-vote for a Dem is almost as good as a vote for a Rep, since higher voter turnout usually favors Dems. If you don’t vote for him, you probably won’t donate money or volunteer either, if you did that stuff before. That’s more stuff in favor for Reps Realize that even politicians you like will not agree with you 100% of the of time, even on some of the big and important decisions. Obama’s making the most out of a bad situation, like providing stimulus for rich bankers in an economy already in recession. It may not be a good choice, but its the lesser of two evils Hell, Obama’s disappointed me plenty of times. Guantanamo is still open, we’re still in Iraq, and he hasn’t fought back against the evil Republican smear machine as hard as I would have liked. But if a Republican was in power, we’d still have all those things, plus DADT would still be the law, we’d have no health care reform, and we’d have 2 more conservatives on the Supreme Court ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/132 "2011-03-20T19:47:31Z")
I know it’s a Pit thread, but I’m going to post [this](http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/03/20/bergen.libya.us/index.html?hpt=T1) link as it’s perhaps relevant to the thread. No quotes since I’m currently out of town and just don’t have time to cut and past…it’s basically a CNN article explaining the differences between what’s happening in Libya and our invasion of Iraq in 2003, but it also goes into some aspects of why Obama et al have taken us down this path. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/133 "2011-03-20T20:04:28Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > A non-vote for a Dem is almost as good as a vote for a Rep, … Too bad. I’m tired of my support being taken for granted. It Democrats want to continue to get my vote, they need to perform actions that make me want to vote for them. They blew the opportunity of a generation in 2009-10, and now this. Don’t hand me that, “It’s the best they could get” bullshit. If they _wanted_ more, they could have worked harder for it. And that lack of zeal obviously cost them in the mid-terms–which party was it that had the unenergized voters again? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/134 "2011-03-20T21:13:03Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Don’t hand me that, “It’s the best they could get” bullshit. If they _wanted_ more, they could have worked harder for it. And that lack of zeal obviously cost them in the mid-terms–which party was it that had the unenergized voters again? So it’s our elected leaders’ faults that Republicans got worked up into a frenzied hatred by the multi-billionaire Koch brothers and Glenn Beck? We tried. Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert organized a massive rally on the Mall. What did you do, personally, to try to “Get Out The Vote”? Did you volunteer with your local Democratic Club? Did you do any phone-banking? Organize any neighborhood rallies? I’m betting the answers to all of the above is ‘No’, ‘No’ and ‘No’. And if you slink away now, what do you think the chances of a President Romney become? Why don’t you stop jerking your knee and look at the enormous amount of work the Democrats and President Obama were able to accomplish in 2 short years, all while dealing with a global economic meltdown; the imminent collapse of major U.S. industries; bleeding of millions of jobs a month; 2 wars; uprisings and protests in Iran, Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Bahrain and Libya; several massive international environmental disasters, especially Haiti, and now, Japan; and several terrorist attack attempts here in the U.S. And that’s not to mention the _bitter_ fight the Republicans waged against us every step of the way. [ol] [li]January 29, 2009: Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act[/li][li]February 4, 2009: Children’s Health Insurance Reauthorization Act[/li][li]February 17, 2009: American Recovery and Reinvestment Act[/li][li]March 30, 2009: Omnibus Public Lands Management Act of 2009[/li][li]April 21, 2009: Edward M. Kennedy Serve America Act[/li][li]May 20, 2009: Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act[/li][li]May 20, 2009: Helping Families Save Their Homes Act of 2009[/li][li]May 22, 2009: Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure Act of 2009[/li][li]May 22, 2009: Weapon Systems Acquisition Reform Act of 2009[/li][li]June 22, 2009: Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act[/li][li]June 30, 2009: Veterans’ Compensation Cost-of-Living Adjustment Act of 2009[/li][li]August 6, 2009: Cash For Clunkers Extension Act[/li][li]October 15, 2009: Enhanced Partnership with Pakistan Act of 2009[/li][li]October 19, 2009: Foreign Evidence Request Efficiency Act of 2009[/li][li]October 22, 2009: Veterans Health Care Budget Reform and Transparency Act[/li][li]October 28, 2009: Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act[/li][li]October 30, 2009: Ryan White HIV/AIDS Treatment Extension Act[/li][li]November 6, 2009: Worker, Homeownership, and Business Assistance Act of 2009[/li][li]November 11, 2009: Military Spouses Residency Relief Act[/li][li]December 15, 2009: No Social Security Benefits for Prisoners Act of 2009[/li][li]December 22, 2009: Human Rights Enforcement Act of 2009[/li][li]January 27, 2010: Emergency Aid to American Survivors of Haiti Earthquake Act[/li][li]February 16, 2010: Nuclear Forensics and Attribution Act[/li][li]February 27, 2010: Social Security Disability Applicants’ Access to Professional Representation Act of 2010[/li][li]March 4, 2010: Travel Promotion Act[/li][li]March 18, 2010: Hiring Incentives to Restore Employment Act (HIRE Act)[/li][li]March 18, 2010: Statutory Pay-As-You-Go Act of 2009 (Division B) Reestablished “pay-as-you-go”[/li][li]March 23, 2010: Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act[/li][li]March 30, 2010: Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010[/li][li]March 31, 2010: Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act of 2009[/li][li]April 7, 2010 Prevent Deceptive Census Look Alike Mailings Act[/li][li]May 5, 2010: Caregivers and Veterans Omnibus Health Services Act of 2010[/li][li]May 17, 2010: Daniel Pearl Freedom of the Press Act[/li][li]May 24, 2010: Lord’s Resistance Army Disarmament and Northern Uganda Recovery Act of 2009[/li][li]May 27, 2010: Federal Judiciary Administrative Improvements Act of 2010[/li][li]June 9, 2010: Special Agent Samuel Hicks Families of Fallen Heroes Act[/li][li]June 25, 2010: Preservation of Access to Care for Medicare Beneficiaries and Pension Relief Act of 2010[/li][li]July 1, 2010: Comprehensive Iran Sanctions, Accountability, and Divestment Act of 2010[/li][li]July 2, 2010: Homebuyer Assistance and Improvement Act of 2010[/li][li]July 7, 2010: Formaldehyde Standards for Composite Wood Products Act[/li][li]July 21, 2010: Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act[/li][li]July 22, 2010: Improper Payments Elimination and Recovery Act of 2010[/li][li]July 27, 2010: Cruise Vessel Security and Safety Act of 2010[/li][li]August 3, 2010: Fair Sentencing Act of 2010[/li][li]August 10, 2010: SPEECH Act of 2010[/li][li]August 10, 2010: Cell Phone Contraband Act of 2010[/li][li]August 11, 2010: United States Manufacturing Enhancement Act of 2010[/li][li]September 27, 2010: Mandatory Price Reporting Act of 2010[/li][li]September 27, 2010: Small Business Jobs and Credit Act of 2010[/li][li]September 30, 2010: First Responder Anti-Terrorism Training Resources Act[/li][li]September 30, 2010: Veterans’ Compensation Cost-of-Living Adjustment Act of 2010[/li][li]October 7, 2010: Reducing Over-Classification Act[/li][li]October 7, 2010: Twenty-First Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act of 2010[/li][li]October 8, 2010: Stem Cell Therapeutic and Research Reauthorization Act of 2010[/li][li]October 7, 2010: Security Cooperation Act of 2010[/li][li]October 12, 2010: Redundancy Elimination and Enhanced Performance for Preparedness Grants Act[/li][li]October 12, 2010: Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act Improvements Act of 2010[/li][li]October 12, 2010: Secure and Responsible Drug Disposal Act of 2010[/li][li]October 13, 2010: Plain Writing Act of 2010[/li][li]October 13, 2010: Veterans’ Benefits Act of 2010[/li][li]October 15, 2010: United States Secret Service Uniformed Division Modernization Act of 2010[/li][li]October 30, 2010: International Adoption Simplification Act[/li][li]December 9, 2010: Telework Enhancement Act of 2010[/li][li]December 9, 2010: Animal Crush Video Prohibition Act of 2010[/li][li]December 13, 2010: Healthy, Hunger-Free Kids Act of 2010[/li][li]December 14, 2010: Asian Carp Prevention and Control Act[/li][li]December 15, 2010: CALM Act (Silly, I know, but this is one of my favorite ones. My ears and my nerves thank Congress and President Obama for this one. )[/li][li]December 18, 2010: Truth in Fur Labeling Act of 2010[/li][li]December 17, 2010: Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010[/li][li]December 18, 2010: Social Security Number Protection Act of 2010[/li][li]December 20, 2010: CAPTA Reauthorization Act of 2010[/li][li]December 22, 2010: Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell Repeal Act of 2010[/li][li]December 22, 2010: Regulated Investment Company Modernization Act of 2010[/li][li]December 22, 2010: Truth in Caller ID Act of 2009[/li][li]December 22, 2010: FOR VETS Act of 2010[/li][li]December 22, 2010: Preserving Foreign Criminal Assets for Forfeiture Act of 2010[/li][li]December 29, 2010: Omnibus Trade Act of 2010[/li][li]December 29, 2010 Helping Heroes Keep Their Homes Act of 2010[/li][li]January 4, 2011: Predisaster Hazard Mitigation Act of 2010[/li][li]January 4, 2011: GPRA Modernization Act of 2010[/li][li]January 4, 2011: FDA Food Safety Modernization Act[/li][li]January 4, 2011: America COMPETES Reauthorization Act of 2010[/li][li]January 4, 2011: Diesel Emissions Reduction Act of 2010[/li][li]January 4, 2011: Supportive Housing for the Elderly Act of 2010[/li][li]January 4, 2011 :Pedestrian Safety Enhancement Act of 2010[/li][li]January 4, 2011: Frank Melville Supportive Housing Investment Act of 2010[/li][li]January 4, 2011: Anti-Border Corruption Act of 2010[/li][li]January 4, 2011: Post-9/11 Veterans Educational Assistance Improvements Act of 2010[/li][li]January 4, 2011: Reduction of Lead in Drinking Water Act[/li][li]September 29, 2010: Treaty with the United Kingdom Concerning Defense Trade Cooperation[/li][li]September 29, 2010: Treaty with Australia Concerning Defense Trade Cooperation[/li][li]September 29, 2010: Hague Convention on International Recovery of Child Support and Family Maintenance[/li][li]December 22, 2010: New START[/li][li]February 23, 2011: Obama declared the Defense of Marriage act unconstitutional and will no longer be defending the cases in the 1st and 2nd circuits.[/li][/ol] Compare that in both scope and _import_, to what the Republicans accomplished over a period of _six_ years of control of both houses and the Presidency. I’m not suggesting you have no right to stomp off pouting. I certainly haven’t been happy with everything President Obama has done (extending the Bush tax cuts to the wealthiest Americans _still_ pisses me off beyond measure). But if you give a damn about Democratic principles, you’ll think long and hard about letting a temper tantrum guide your 2012 presidential vote. Thank you for the article, **xtisme**. Worth the read. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/135 "2011-03-20T23:20:16Z")
Thanks, **Shayna**. I’m too disorganized and have too short an attention span to assemble a list like that, but it’s important to keep in mind what Obama actually has accomplished by not being an ideologue. I’m not happy about the invasion of Libya, but at least it truly is a UN effort this time (even France is in!), and I’m planning on voting for Obama again. He and Clinton have been my favorite presidents of my lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/136 "2011-03-21T00:15:48Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Thanks, **Shayna**. I’m too disorganized and have too short an attention span to assemble a list like that, but it’s important to keep in mind what Obama actually has accomplished by not being an ideologue. > > I’m not happy about the invasion of Libya, but at least it truly is a UN effort this time (even France is in!), and I’m planning on voting for Obama again. He and Clinton have been my favorite presidents of my lifetime. You’re welcome, **bup**. Latest news: [Joy in rebel stronghold after Western attack](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42182837/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/) - Residents of the rebel stronghold of Benghazi on Sunday fired AK-47s in jubilation and danced on burnt-out tanks.[Four Qatari planes to join Libya operations soon](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/20/libya-qatar-france-idUSLDE72J0KR20110320) - “As announced by the Qatari authorities, it will deploy four planes in the zone to be able to take part in the operations, which is another sign of Arab participation in this international operation to protect civilians,” Laurent Teisseire told reporters. [Obama works to shore up Arab support for Libyan airstrikes](http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/20/libya.obama.support/) - [T]he White House is still confident that the administration will be able to hand off “later this week” much of the mission to allies, who will actually enforce the no-fly zone after the initial U.S. bombing clears the way for it. [Building at Gadhafi’s compound damaged](http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/20/libya-live-blog-allied-airstrikes-continue-against-gadhafi-forces/) - A building at Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi’s compound in Tripoli was damaged by at least one missile about 2.5 hours ago, a Libyan government official tells CNN’s Nic Robertson. [Arabs Back Allied Offensive on Libya as Leader Qaddafi Remains Defiant](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-20/qatar-says-it-will-join-libya-military-operations-as-arabs-back-offensive.html) - Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called Arab participation in talks in Paris yesterday “extraordinarily important” and said more can be expected from Middle East states. . .Leaders from the United Arab Emirates, Jordan, Iraq, Qatar and Morocco participated in yesterday’s talks. * * * I’m sorry, but this doesn’t look _anything like_ the Iraq debacle to me. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/137 "2011-03-21T00:30:16Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > I’m sorry, but this doesn’t look _anything like_ the Iraq debacle to me. So what? It’s. none. of. our. business. Let the Arab League deal with it if they’re so concerned. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/138 "2011-03-21T00:39:56Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > As a vehemently anti-war, leftist liberal, I was initially inclined to angrily denouncing this as none of our business, too. > > How is what’s happening in Libya any interest of the U.S.? Why should we get involved there, if not in Yemen, Tunisia, Egypt, Iran, Bahrain? > > But I’ve come around on this. First, what’s happening in Libya isn’t a simple civil war. It’s a dictator threatening annihilation of his citizens, and beginning the follow-through on that threat, forcing formerly peaceful protesters to take up whatever arms they could find to protect themselves. Had the Jews in Germany been able to do the same, would we not have bothered to protect them from their government’s mass extermination efforts? > > Second, we aren’t “invading”, nor will we “invade”, which is one way this can be differentiated from the Iraq debacle. > > Third, the Yememis, Tunisians, Egyptians, Iranians and Bahrainians haven’t asked for our help; the Libyans _have_. When victims ask for your help, do you turn your back because it’s none of your business? Do you walk past a rape in progress while the victim is begging you to help because it’s none of your business? > > Fourth, we aren’t the instigators here, the French and British are. _They_ have a vested interest in stability in that region. When we asked for their support in our battle against Saddam in Iraq, they backed us up. They’re now asking us to back _them_ up. Do we turn down our allies when they didn’t turn _us_ down? Should we not have their back when they had ours? > > And finally, we have the full support of the Arab League here. We have an opportunity to forge some stronger alliances in places where they’re badly needed. We have an opportunity to not look like Cowboys killing Arabs, but friends helping _save_ Arabs. And let’s be honest, even if it doesn’t look much different to _us_, it _does_ look entirely different to _them_. And especially in international relations, perception is reality. > > I hope it’s short and sweet. I hope there is minimal involvement on our part and that we don’t lose any American lives. I hope we can use this opportunity to help our allies to the ultimate benefit of everyone, especially the people of Libya. > > I voted for Barack Obama because I found him to be a _thoughtful_ person. I found him to be pragmatic. I _trusted_ him to be our country’s Commander in Chief because of those qualities. He hasn’t given me any reason to have lost trust in his thoughtfulness or pragmatism, so I have to trust that he did not make this decision lightly, having weighed all the pros and cons. Ultimately, I don’t _like_ it, but I think we’ve done the right thing here. Well, there’s all that and then there’s also Khadaffi’s justice minister revealing to the world that Khaddafi personally ordered the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103, killing 190 Americans and 40-odd British people. That’s terrorism right there, folks. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/139 "2011-03-21T00:43:42Z")
Let’s just not hear anything about “at least he hasn’t started any unnecessary wars” when someone asks how the Obama presidency is turning out. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212/140 "2011-03-21T00:44:37Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > So what? It’s. none. of. our. business. > > Let the Arab League deal with it if they’re so concerned. It’s rather short-sighted and uneducated in international relations, to suggest that assisting our allies in their efforts to end violence that stands to destabilize an already fragile area is “none. of. our. business.” But if that’s how you feel, then that’s how you feel. Even a 3 year old is entitled to a tantrum now and then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-and-obama-its-the-last-straw-for-me/575212.md?page=8)