# Libya: George W. Bush would had done a better job **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684 "2011-03-14T18:26:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/41 "2011-03-15T17:06:06Z")
This is a parody thread, right? ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/42 "2011-03-15T22:20:52Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The point is that the Libyans are demanding a no-fly zone themselves. In addition the Europeans have far more limited force projection capabilities than us and far less of a willingness to fight (consider the reluctance with which they’re intervening in Afghanistan). As far as I can see, like it or not we’re the world’s policeman for now and something like this is actually a great oppourtunity to show the US’ actions can be constructive. If you were in charge, exactly what would you do and how could we pay for it? How could we align our allies to support us? How could we maintain the good will (if we have any) of other Arabic states? You talk a good fight; how about telling us how to implement that fight? ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/43 "2011-03-16T03:48:59Z")
Neocons want Obama to intervene in Libya: > **[Gawker | The Website](https://gawker.com/#!5782293/neocons-write-nice-letter-asking-obama-for-war-in-libya)** > > Gawker. It's a website on the internet. Excerpt from open letter signed by the likes of Kristol, Bremer and Liz Cheney: > [@](#): > > On Saturday, the Arab League endorsed Libyan opposition calls for a no fly zone. We call on you to urgently institute a no fly zone over key Libyan cities and towns in conjunction with U.S. allies. We also call on you to explore the option of targeted strikes against regime assets in an effort to prevent further bloodshed. The United States should also immediately recognize the Libyan National Transitional Council and take all necessary actions to support their efforts to unseat the Qaddafi regime. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/44 "2011-03-16T03:57:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is not specific enough. What you’re saying is the rebels have asked for a no fly zone, assuming you are correct. The Arab League also supports one. None of which means the U.S. is expected to do so on its own. If the world does not act quickly enough the US cannot help but take action on its own Why wouldn’t the freedom fighters love the opportunity of an end to airstrikes. > [@The\_Tooth](#): > > No, it’s the torturer Bush and his apologists who made the US look bad, not Bush’s critics, or as you call them, intellectual agitators. > > That you would even suggest military action on the grounds that it will salve your ego is revolting. No, you shouldn’t take action in Libya on the grounds that it will make you feel better. Libyan sovereignty and Libyan lives are more important than the bruised ego of the American right. I support them to help the Libyan people and to restore America’s standing as a bonus. You do realize this action will save Libyan lives? > [@Marley23](#): > > Oh, he thinks it’s just leftists and “agitators” who thought Bush’s actions harmed the image of the U.S.? You need to abandon this kind of rhetoric, **Qin Shi Huangdi** ; you sound like you’re trying to imitate McCarthy or Nixon or something. I’m not sure how much it matters that Bush hurt the standing of the U.S. as opposed to the other damage he did - particularly in that he left the country with two new major military commitments, which has made a lot of foreign policy challenges much more difficult - but he did harm the standing of the country. Remember how people’s impressions of the U.S. shot up in polls after Obama was elected? And people’s opinions are not a great indicator of truth. Including the Third World and thus all the world’s people, most people would be rabidly homophobic, sexist, racist, and ignorant. Thus they are easily swayed by relatively simplistic things into loving and hating America. But to your exact points-Afghanistan was pretty much inevitable no matter who was President and Iraq, I agree, may have been a mistake and I do not advocate McCarthyite rhetoric. My point was world opinion turned so viciously anti-American after the IRaq War, people were easily swayed against America/ > [@LouisB](#): > > Do you consider yourself to be an 'intellectual?" Yes, hence the quotation marks. > [@LouisB](#): > > If you were in charge, exactly what would you do and how could we pay for it? How could we align our allies to support us? How could we maintain the good will (if we have any) of other Arabic states? You talk a good fight; how about telling us how to implement that fight? We will pay for it with our tax money, for a far more noble purpose than supporting an artist who smears elephant feces on a picture of the Virgin mary. Remember, I do not advocate invasion, only a no-fly zone. Plus considering the world is crying out for it, we will have world opinion solidly behind us. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/45 "2011-03-16T04:50:33Z")
We spend damn little money on artists who smear elephant feces on pictures of the virgin Mary. I do like your answer to my question concerning you intellectualism. You’re getting better as time goes on. Keep it up. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/46 "2011-03-16T05:10:13Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I support them to help the Libyan people and to restore America’s standing as a bonus. I’ve seen the kind of help right-wing interventionism results in, thanks. And America’s standing means nothing to me, so that’s no argument at all. > [@](#): > > You do realize this action will save Libyan lives? I have no reason whatsoever to think that other than your say-so. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/47 "2011-03-16T05:21:37Z")
Why? We can surgically strike the anti aircraft positions and disable the guns without killing people. Then we can bomb radar installations when nobody is at work. Then we can gently shoot down their planes allowing the pilots to parachute safely. Then ,the rebels will peacefully take over the government, quietly retiring the soldiers and Kadaffy backers. Of course, none of our planes would be shot down or pilots would be killed either. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/48 "2011-03-16T10:32:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Posted by: Qin Shi Huangdi > We will pay for it with our tax money, for a far more noble purpose than supporting an artist who smears elephant feces on a picture of the Virgin mary. Remember, I do not advocate invasion, only a no-fly zone. Plus considering the world is crying out for it, we will have world opinion solidly behind us. But we’re broke, according to some politicians. We ain’t go no tax money to spare; we’re cutting everything in sight in from our budget and our deficit is beyond belief and getting bigger every day. If the whole world is crying out for a no fly zone, let the whole world put their money where their mouth is. You’re improving Qin but I think you’re just a little bit idealistic. (I intended to add this to my post #45 but forgot it. I do like your answer to my jab at you regarding the intellectual thing; I had it coming.) ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/49 "2011-03-16T10:43:11Z")
> [@howye](#): > > What is stopping others from stepping in? Europe can’t setup a no-fly zone? The United States is not the world police and quite frankly we still have not stopped taking shit for the last dictator we toppled. Let somebody else do it. France and Britain want to do it. It requires NATO agreement, which means the US has to agree, too, along with other countries. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/50 "2011-03-16T10:50:47Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > France and Britain want to do it. It requires NATO agreement, which means the US has to agree, too, along with other countries. If the US doesn’t have the money then we have to decline to get involved. I’m sick of my money going off-shore while hearing that we need to cut Social Security. I’m a lot more invested in preserving SS than in intervening in another foreign venture. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/51 "2011-03-16T12:20:59Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > If the world does not act quickly enough the US cannot help but take action on its own The U.S. is not going to act on its own. > [@](#): > > And people’s opinions are not a great indicator of truth. Well, you’ve proved your own point: you said people disliked America because of leftist agitation, and you were wrong. > [@](#): > > I do not advocate McCarthyite rhetoric. Then don’t use it. > [@](#): > > My point was world opinion turned so viciously anti-American after the IRaq War, people were easily swayed against America The war was one reason their opinions were swayed. In 2002 and 2003, the U.S. accused Iraq of having dangerous weapons and links to terrorists (without much evidence) and demanded Iraq allow weapons inspections. Iraq did that and destroyed some of its own weapons. The U.S. then invaded anyway and found none of the weapons it said were there. Leftist agitators were not the reason this looked bad. > [@](#): > > We will pay for it with our tax money, for a far more noble purpose than supporting an artist who smears elephant feces on a picture of the Virgin mary. This is a ridiculous statement. You obviously only know about this painting from a controversy you’ve heard about, as the picture you are thinking of was not funded by taxpayers. In any case a war in Libya would not be paid for with money from the budget of the NEA. My taxes go to a lot of ridiculous crap I don’t support. It’s not a compelling reason to say some of them are worse than a no-fly zone or a war in Libya. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/52 "2011-03-16T12:36:37Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > Neocons want Obama to intervene in Libya: > > [Gawker | The Website](http://gawker.com/#!5782293/neocons-write-nice-letter-asking-obama-for-war-in-libya) > > Excerpt from open letter signed by the likes of Kristol, Bremer and Liz Cheney: Wolfowitz, too, according to Maureen Dowd. Kristol, Bremer, Wolfowitz, and (Liz) Cheney – when have those folks ever been wrong? Jeez, it’s like an Axis of Screw Up. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/53 "2011-03-16T14:13:02Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Wolfowitz, too, according to Maureen Dowd. > > Kristol, Bremer, Wolfowitz, and (Liz) Cheney – when have those folks ever been wrong? > > Jeez, it’s like an Axis of Screw Up. I fully expect to hear any day now how they know where GaKaChaGhaWhatever-Daffhi has weapons of mass destruction, and that they’re in the areas east, west, north and south of Tripoli. ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/54 "2011-03-16T15:50:59Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > We will pay for it with our tax money, for a far more noble purpose than supporting an artist who smears elephant feces on a picture of the Virgin mary. Yeah… no. I assume you’re talking about _The Holy Virgin Mary_ by Chris Ofili. Some things to take into consideration for your comparison:[ol] [li]The painting was not commisioned or sold to the US. No tax money payed for it’s creation. In fact, it’s not even in the country anymore, which isn’t a suprise since it was part of a touring exhibition and never permanent. (I think it’s currently in Tasmania)[/li][li]Chris Ofili is British and is not now nor has he ever been employed by the US Government, whether to create artwork for them or in any other capacity.[/li][li]The debate was using this as an excuse to defund the Brooklyn Museum of Art, one of the top art institution in the world.[/li][li]The Brooklyn Museum of Art receives very little federal funding, most of the money comes from private donors and New York City.[/li][li]Even if you took all the tax money the museum receives (ignoring for a moment that most of it isn’t the federal government’s money to take back or spend) you’d probably get less than $10 million a year. Good luck paying for a No-Fly Zone with that.[/li][/ol] > [@](#): > > Remember, I do not advocate invasion, only a no-fly zone. Plus considering the world is crying out for it, we will have world opinion solidly behind us. Cite that the world is crying out for it? We aren’t the only people with planes, so why hasn’t any other country set one up? Please provide a list of Heads of State who have publically asked the US to create one or the UN resolution requesting its creation. And do you no longer count Canada or Russia as part of the world? Both countries have stated that they don’t approve of any outside military intervention at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/55 "2011-03-16T17:01:38Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > If the US doesn’t have the money then we have to decline to get involved. I’m sick of my money going off-shore while hearing that we need to cut Social Security. I’m a lot more invested in preserving SS than in intervening in another foreign venture. You misunderstand me. There’s a big difference between not voting against it and having to do it. France and Britain are trying to persuade NATO. The US and China are currently voting against it, so nothing can legally happen. NATO can do it without the US but it legally needs the US’s vote. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/56 "2011-03-16T18:32:30Z")
> [@Oldeb](#): > > And do you no longer count Canada or Russia as part of the world? Both countries have stated that they don’t approve of any outside military intervention at this time. I don’t know about the Russians, but we Canadians are a simple folk, and easily swayed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/57 "2011-03-17T00:35:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > > > . . . for a far more noble purpose than supporting an artist who smears elephant feces on a picture of the Virgin mary. > > This is a ridiculous statement. You obviously only know about this painting from a controversy you’ve heard about, as the picture you are thinking of was not funded by taxpayers. In any case a war in Libya would not be paid for with money from the budget of the NEA. My taxes go to a lot of ridiculous crap I don’t support. It’s not a compelling reason to say some of them are worse than a no-fly zone or a war in Libya. Actually, that claim is even more baseless. No one “_smear[ed] elephant feces on a picture of the Virgin mary._” What the artist actually created was an image using multiple media, one of which happened to be elephant dung. Many of his works employ techniques and materials from his Ethiopian heritage and elephant dung is one of the materials used in that culture’s art. Dung provides a three-dimensional image, (much as _paper-mâché_ which was probably not well-known in Ethiopia in earlier times), while not being too heavy to adhere to canvas as clay would. Rather than “smearing” that substance, he used it to create images of cherubs and other figures common to many European Christian works. (You really do need to pay enough attention to actual facts to avoid embarrassment.) ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/58 "2011-03-17T00:55:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This is a parody thread, right? Isn’t it just _amazing_? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/59 "2011-03-17T00:57:42Z")
back to the OP . Yes if you think starting another war, spending billions more dollars of tax money, creating more hatred of American Imperialism and killing more innocent Middle Easterners is a better job, then Bush would have done a better job. ---
**Author:** ![Sablicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sablicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sablicious)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/60 "2011-03-17T13:18:20Z")
The Bushes are war mongers and signatories to the military-industrial complex _and_ have a history with Gaddafi. As such, this kind of situation would have suited them to a tee and they likely _would_ have done a better job of it; or at least, have done something. The repercussions of a ‘Bush approach’ to Lybia are far less lucid however. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684.md?page=4)