# Libya: George W. Bush would had done a better job **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684 "2011-03-14T18:26:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/61 "2011-03-17T13:24:11Z")
> [@Sablicious](#): > > The Bushes are war mongers and signatories to the military-industrial complex _and_ have a history with Gaddafi. As such, this kind of situation would have suited them to a tee and they likely _would_ have done a better job of it; or at least, have done something. “Look busy” is not a foreign policy. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/62 "2011-03-17T13:48:59Z")
I think Bush would have done something about the Libya situation. The uprising is significantly affecting the supply and distribution of oil in the world and that’s not something to be tolerated. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/63 "2011-03-17T13:49:56Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > You misunderstand me. There’s a big difference between not voting against it and having to do it. France and Britain are trying to persuade NATO. The US and China are currently voting against it, so nothing can legally happen. NATO can do it without the US but it legally needs the US’s vote. Huh? You are confusing NATO and the UN - China has no vote in NATO. Yes, NATO could impose a no-fly zone. And as we’ve seen a NATO action usually means lots of US troops and far fewer other ones. US soldiers by and large would be the ones “having to do it.” So yes, American fighter pilots and some European ones can make an act of war on another MENA oil rich country by trying to bomb out Libya’s air defense system and then try to enforce a no-fly zone over a sovereign nation. Yes, we can open up another US-led prolonged military operation in the region. Yes, in the UN China and Russia will likely block a resolution. But there is nothing stopping the Arab League from acting … maybe the Saudi’s can send some troops there to enforce a no-fly zone instead of to Barhain. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/64 "2011-03-17T14:45:55Z")
The US is allegedly egging the SC to consider intervention: [http://www.cnbc.com/id/42124342](http://www.cnbc.com/id/42124342) > [@](#): > > The United States, previously cool on the idea of a foreign military intervention, said the U.N. Security Council should consider tougher action than a no-fly zone over Libya. > > “We are discussing very seriously and leading efforts in the Council around a range of actions that we believe could be effective in protecting civilians,” U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Susan Rice said in New York late on Wednesday. “The U.S. view is that we need to be prepared to contemplate steps that include, **but perhaps go beyond** , a no-fly zone.” [Emphasis added] In my opinion, the problem with Obama’s foreign policy, at least in _appearances_, is that he seems to be continually blowing hot and cold. It is very difficult to get a sense of any unifying purpose or theme - one day it isn’t in US interests for foreigners get involved in Libya, in spite of civilian suffering (that is, US national interests ought to come first - a perfectly defensible theme); the next, the US is urging the SC to “perhaps go beyond” a no-fly zone - clearly meaning some sort of military strikes, intended to protect civilians (that is, civilian protection ought to trump US national interests - also a defensible theme, but contrary to the first): > [@](#): > > Diplomats at the United Nations told Reuters that the United States, Britain and France now supported the idea of the council authorising military action such as air strikes to protect civilian areas. > > U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said she hoped the Security Council would vote “no later than Thursday.” She said Gaddafi seemed determined to kill as many as Libyans as possible, and that “many different actions” were being considered. The overall picure is one of vacillation. Perhaps this is just being “crazy like a fox”, feeling for consensus before making a decisive move; I dunno. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/65 "2011-03-17T15:00:09Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Huh? > You are confusing NATO and the UN - China has no vote in NATO. Yes, sorry. The UN. I had NATO on the brain for some reason. > [@](#): > > Yes, in the UN China and Russia will likely block a resolution. And, indeed, until today the US was. Today the US changed its mind, and is no longer blocking a resolution. > [@](#): > > But there is nothing stopping the Arab League from acting … maybe the Saudi’s can send some troops there to enforce a no-fly zone instead of to Barhain. Well, I don’t know about the Arab League. Are they not members of the UN? I was pointing out that your criticism was that other countries should do it not the US, and I responded that the UK and France were perfectly _willing_ to do so but for that pesky UN resolution being blocked by the US and China, and that the crticism therefore wasn’t fair. The US withdrew its objections today, however, so that’s a start. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/66 "2011-03-17T15:27:21Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > I think Bush would have done something about the Libya situation. > > The uprising is significantly affecting the supply and distribution of oil in the world and that’s not something to be tolerated. Define something. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/67 "2011-03-17T18:06:46Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > I think Bush would have done something about the Libya situation. > > The uprising is significantly affecting the supply and distribution of oil in the world and that’s not something to be tolerated. We are all frustrated because people are fighting a dictator, presumably for more rights and a better life. But the truth is there is nothing we can do. If Bush did not drag us into 2 wars and trash the economy. Obama might have had more cards to play. But our treasury has been depleted and our soldiers are busy. We have no right to interfere with a sovereign country. If the UN gives us legal cover, then it might change. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/68 "2011-03-17T18:13:56Z")
The UN is not going to get involved. That’s already been made clear. NATO might, but I’m not sure it’s in the offing. The sovereignty argument has never meant anything to me when it’s applied to dictators, but the U.S. is not going to go it alone. That’s not practical or smart. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/69 "2011-03-17T18:19:04Z")
The Arab League (and France) have identified the sovereign rights of the Libyan people as vested in the rebels, not the regime, have they not? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/70 "2011-03-17T18:55:21Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > The Arab League (and France) have identified the sovereign rights of the Libyan people as vested in the rebels, not the regime, have they not? Then they should go in and fix the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/71 "2011-03-17T19:00:33Z")
In fact, [I suggested](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13496418#post13496418) an Egyptian air intervention last month. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/72 "2011-03-17T23:50:25Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > I’ve seen the kind of help right-wing interventionism results in, thanks. And America’s standing means nothing to me, so that’s no argument at all. What about in the Balkans where the US stopped an ethnic cleansing? Or was the left-wing because Clinton did it? And we need to keep America as strong as possible as long as possible, at least until China democratizes somewhat for the democratic-capitalist-neoliberal world order to mature. > [@](#): > > I have no reason whatsoever to think that other than your say-so. Simple logic: US Air power\>Libyan air power, Libyans stop bombing their countrymen. > [@LouisB](#): > > But we’re broke, according to some politicians. We ain’t go no tax money to spare; we’re cutting everything in sight in from our budget and our deficit is beyond belief and getting bigger every day. If the whole world is crying out for a no fly zone, let the whole world put their money where their mouth is. You’re improving Qin but I think you’re just a little bit idealistic. (I intended to add this to my post #45 but forgot it. I do like your answer to my jab at you regarding the intellectual thing; I had it coming.) Well Europe’s budget has been so focused on social welfare projects that they have by and large neglected military spending and added it to that they’re less willing to mount military missions anyway. > [@LouisB](#): > > If the US doesn’t have the money then we have to decline to get involved. I’m sick of my money going off-shore while hearing that we need to cut Social Security. I’m a lot more invested in preserving SS than in intervening in another foreign venture. I’m more interested in saving people’s lives than making sure everyone gets their welfare dues. > [@Marley23](#): > > Well, you’ve proved your own point: you said people disliked America because of leftist agitation, and you were wrong. I concede your point. > [@](#): > > The war was one reason their opinions were swayed. In 2002 and 2003, the U.S. accused Iraq of having dangerous weapons and links to terrorists (without much evidence) and demanded Iraq allow weapons inspections. Iraq did that and destroyed some of its own weapons. The U.S. then invaded anyway and found none of the weapons it said were there. Leftist agitators were not the reason this looked bad. I agree but would you not still say that much of the world’s intelligentsia especially in Latin America are strongly anti-American? > [@](#): > > This is a ridiculous statement. You obviously only know about this painting from a controversy you’ve heard about, as the picture you are thinking of was not funded by taxpayers. In any case a war in Libya would not be paid for with money from the budget of the NEA. My taxes go to a lot of ridiculous crap I don’t support. It’s not a compelling reason to say some of them are worse than a no-fly zone or a war in Libya. I apologize for the mistake. > [@Oldeb](#): > > Y > > Cite that the world is crying out for it? We aren’t the only people with planes, so why hasn’t any other country set one up? Please provide a list of Heads of State who have publically asked the US to create one or the UN resolution requesting its creation. > > And do you no longer count Canada or Russia as part of the world? Both countries have stated that they don’t approve of any outside military intervention at this time. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan\_civil\_war#Calls\_for\_international\_intervention](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_civil_war#Calls_for_international_intervention) > [@](#): > > The Benghazi-based opposition government has called for a no-fly zone and airstrikes against the Gaddafi regime.[247] Amd add to that the Arab League and the French are calling for them… who both are usually suspiscious of the US. Plus Russia often works against us. > [@spark240](#): > > In fact, [I suggested](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13496418#post13496418) an Egyptian air intervention last month. Does Egypt have enough air power to do it? Unlike a US intervention which will be a cakewalk or a turkey shoot at worst, an Egyptian air intervention can be contested by the Libyan air force. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/73 "2011-03-18T00:00:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The UN is not going to get involved. That’s already been made clear. … Care to revisit this statement? Well actually the UN doesn’t do it. But with the approval of the UN, the approval and participation of the Arab League, this becomes what an Iraqi operation should have been. Will it do much? I don’t know. But the risk of this becoming another Iraq front for the US is now much reduced by taking the week to make sure that anything done is done in a true multilateral manner ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/74 "2011-03-18T00:07:52Z")
Now watch France and Italy, who have been talking this up the most, wait for the US to strike first. France: Hey guys we got this rammed through the UN, get to it! Italy: Umm, we’ll let you use our air bases! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/75 "2011-03-18T00:39:18Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I agree but would you not still say that much of the world’s intelligentsia especially in Latin America are strongly anti-American? I don’t think it’s a meaningful statement. There is no shortage of people who will criticize the U.S.'s behavior and view it in a jaundiced light. Are they all anti-American? > [@DSeid](#): > > Care to revisit this statement? I’m happy to be surprised and wrong about that. I thought NATO might get involved but I was under the impression that there was too much opposition in the U.N. We’ll see how vigorously the no-fly zones are enforced and whether they make a difference. My question is, does the OP want to revisit her statement? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/76 "2011-03-18T00:46:18Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > What about in the Balkans where the US stopped an ethnic cleansing? Or was the left-wing because Clinton did it? Clinton wasn’t fighting two inherited wars at the time. I can’t believe you want your country to embark on yet another military adventure. Aren’t you bleeding money fast enough for your liking? > [@](#): > > And we need to keep America as strong as possible as long as possible, at least until China democratizes somewhat for the democratic-capitalist-neoliberal world order to mature. I think it will only make the US’s troubles worse. It certainly won’t keep you strong. Not spreading resources already thinly spread certainly won’t weaken you. > [@](#): > > Simple logic: US Air power\>Libyan air power, Libyans stop bombing their countrymen. That’s the sort of logic that led to conclusions regarding Iraq, conclusions like it taking six months and costing 50 billion dollars. But hey, it’s not my money, or my country. Have at it. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/77 "2011-03-18T01:02:11Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Clinton wasn’t fighting two inherited wars at the time. I can’t believe you want your country to embark on yet another military adventure. Aren’t you bleeding money fast enough for your liking? No, but we need to protect the Libyan people. > [@](#): > > I think it will only make the US’s troubles worse. It certainly won’t keep you strong. Not spreading resources already thinly spread certainly won’t weaken you. If so, so be it to protect the Libyan people. > [@](#): > > That’s the sort of logic that led to conclusions regarding Iraq, conclusions like it taking six months and costing 50 billion dollars. > > But hey, it’s not my money, or my country. Have at it. Good luck. Which why its a no-fly zone not a full scale invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/78 "2011-03-18T01:11:07Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No, but we need to protect the Libyan people. It may be the right thing to do - in fact I think it is - but it is not true that anyone needs to do it. You’re putting the obligation in the wrong place. > [@](#): > > Which why its a no-fly zone not a full scale invasion. The question is whether or not that matters. Gaddafi’s forces may be capable of wiping out the rebels on the ground with artillery at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/79 "2011-03-18T01:30:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It may be the right thing to do - in fact I think it is - but it is not true that anyone needs to do it. You’re putting the obligation in the wrong place. I believe national governments are obligated to all human beings, especially a superpower like the US. The question is whether or not that matters. Gaddafi’s forces may be capable of wiping out the rebels on the ground with artillery at this point. [/QUOTE] Still, it is better than nothing. Indeed it may be argued if we had acted faster this wouldn’t have haappened. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/80 "2011-03-18T01:31:46Z")
> [@](#): > > …Gaddafi’s forces may be capable of wiping out the rebels on the ground with artillery at this point. Maybe not. Last report I heard had Ghadaffi’s forces about fifty miles out, and heavy artillery has to move pretty slowly, even on a highway. And as Iraq War I showed very clearly, heavy artillery that must be on a highway to move is vulnerable. The hope is that a sensible procedure has been followed, that preparatory actions have already been taken, and the planes can get into the air quickly. Then the question becomes how willing are Ghadaffi’s troops to die for him? My guess is: not much. From my lips to The Ears… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684.md?page=5)