# Libya: George W. Bush would had done a better job **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684 "2011-03-14T18:26:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/81 "2011-03-18T01:34:08Z")
**Qin Shi Huangdi** , that link you provided in no way supports your claim. It only has a request from the Benghazi-based opposition government and a random doctor in Ajdabiyal and mentions support from France and the UK. Although since there is now a UN Resolution you’ve become correct anyway. Personally I’d prefer to see the US not get involved at all. I’m guessing that since the rebels have become trapped in once city it’s contained enough that not having the gunships or bombers is only going to slow Gaddafi down, not stop him. I’d expect a bunch of heavy bombing over the next couple of days as the no-fly zone is set up and then he can just send in troops. I think it’s already at the point that ground troops would have to be committed and the US really doesn’t need to be doing that. I understand what you’re saying, **Qin** , but we are already involved in two very costly wars. A third, even if it’s only a drop in the bucket compared to current military costs, is just not something we need to be doing. I understand that you’re thinking of how there are tons of innocent Libyans caught in this. I understand and agree with you that Gaddafi is nucking futs and a brutal dicator. But you’re wrong about how we need to do this to protect them even if it weakens the US because it’s the right thing to do. The mantra you’re repeating is one of helping at all costs. It’s a great sentiment and plenty of volunteers and social workers have burned themselves out trying to do it. You’re never going to save everyone, **Qin** , no matter how much you want to. It doesn’t matter if we’re talking on a local scale with people you know or on a global scale with people getting bombed by mercenaries hired by a dictator. You’ll end up destroying yourself trying. On topic with the OP’s comment that Bush would have handled it better, I really don’t see how this isn’t a million times better than Bush. I agree with **DSeid** , this is how Iraq should have been. And when it didn’t happen Bush should have gotten the hint. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/82 "2011-03-18T01:35:27Z")
Wouldn’t a lot depend on how much, if any, of his army is mercenaries? I know that was being reported early on, but I don’t think I ever heard any actual confirmation or hard numbers. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/83 "2011-03-18T01:37:28Z")
Gadaffy’s troops have been firing and dying for him. If they can finish off the rebels before the No fly is organized, the troops win .They will get money and jobs . ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/84 "2011-03-18T01:42:45Z")
Thank God the UN has passed it. > [@Oldeb](#): > > **Qin Shi Huangdi** , that link you provided in no way supports your claim. It only has a request from the Benghazi-based opposition government and a random doctor in Ajdabiyal and mentions support from France and the UK. Although since there is now a UN Resolution you’ve become correct anyway. > > Personally I’d prefer to see the US not get involved at all. I’m guessing that since the rebels have become trapped in once city it’s contained enough that not having the gunships or bombers is only going to slow Gaddafi down, not stop him. I’d expect a bunch of heavy bombing over the next couple of days as the no-fly zone is set up and then he can just send in troops. I think it’s already at the point that ground troops would have to be committed and the US really doesn’t need to be doing that. > > I understand what you’re saying, **Qin** , but we are already involved in two very costly wars. A third, even if it’s only a drop in the bucket compared to current military costs, is just not something we need to be doing. I understand that you’re thinking of how there are tons of innocent Libyans caught in this. I understand and agree with you that Gaddafi is nucking futs and a brutal dicator. But you’re wrong about how we need to do this to protect them even if it weakens the US because it’s the right thing to do. > > The mantra you’re repeating is one of helping at all costs. It’s a great sentiment and plenty of volunteers and social workers have burned themselves out trying to do it. You’re never going to save everyone, **Qin** , no matter how much you want to. It doesn’t matter if we’re talking on a local scale with people you know or on a global scale with people getting bombed by mercenaries hired by a dictator. You’ll end up destroying yourself trying. > > On topic with the OP’s comment that Bush would have handled it better, I really don’t see how this isn’t a million times better than Bush. I agree with **DSeid** , this is how Iraq should have been. And when it didn’t happen Bush should have gotten the hint. I agree that we can’t save everyone, but I think here it is worth intervening because Libya is now the centre-stage for the struggle between freedom and tyranny in addition to the fact that Ghaddafi is an enemy of the US. I think as in the Balkans, we can stop the violence without investing too much of our resources. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/85 "2011-03-18T01:49:49Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I believe national governments are obligated to all human beings, especially a superpower like the US. As much as I want to see everyone stand up against oppression and tyranny everywhere, this idea has some complex and troubling implications. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/86 "2011-03-18T01:55:28Z")
\*\*I’m more interested in saving people’s lives than making sure everyone gets their welfare dues.\*\*Social Security is not welfare, sport. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/87 "2011-03-18T01:58:15Z")
A spokesman for Social Security recipients said he was glad that no Social Security recipients were involved. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/88 "2011-03-18T01:58:59Z")
Because of course, Social Security or welfare or Medicare don’t save lives. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/89 "2011-03-18T01:59:40Z")
> **[Obama demands pull-back of Libyan troops; Tripoli declares cease-fire](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europeans_say_intervention_in_libya_possible_within_hours_of_un_vote/2011/03/17/ABSb9pl_story.html?wprss=rss_homepage)** > > A United Nations resolution authorizing the international community to take “all necessary measures” to protect civilians in Libya moved toward a Security Council vote Thursday afternoon, and its European backers said enforcement actions could... This source says that the French have indicated they are ready to take action very quickly. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/90 "2011-03-18T02:00:47Z")
Which means they could be in position to surrender by morning. OK, OK, cheap shot… ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/91 "2011-03-18T02:02:26Z")
The Fark headline for this is “Let slip the frogs of war”. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/92 "2011-03-18T02:03:14Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Thank God the UN has passed it. > > I agree that we can’t save everyone, but I think here it is worth intervening because Libya is now the centre-stage for the struggle between freedom and tyranny in addition to the fact that Ghaddafi is an enemy of the US. I think as in the Balkans, we can stop the violence without investing too much of our resources. Struggle between freedom and tyranny? How do you know the outcome? When and if Kadaffy is gone, who knows what will be in place. You are dreaming of a democratic process and an American type constitution, but there are tribes fighting for control. Who knows what awaits? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/93 "2011-03-18T02:14:38Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I believe national governments are obligated to all human beings, especially a superpower like the US. … So it is every nation’s business to commit militarily to protect all humans anywhere? The US should have intervened during the Tiananmen Square massacre and during massacres in Tibet and Myanmar and should militarily intervene to correct the human rights abuses that are South Korea? And on and on and on. If not, then why not? Which circumstances warrant our involvement and what sort of involvement? The ones that are “center stage” meaning the ones that get press I assume? The ones where we don’t like the leader even if diplomacy had succeeded in converting him from an active supporter of terrorism into a leader who provided information about terror movements? Or the ones with oil? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/94 "2011-03-18T02:18:23Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Struggle between freedom and tyranny? How do you know the outcome? When and if Kadaffy is gone, who knows what will be in place. You are dreaming of a democratic process and an American type constitution, but there are tribes fighting for control. Who knows what awaits? Isn’t that what conservatives said about Egypt and the overthrow of Hosni Mubarak? :rolleyes::dubious: > [@DSeid](#): > > So it is every nation’s business to commit militarily to protect all humans anywhere? The US should have intervened during the Tiananmen Square massacre and during massacres in Tibet and Myanmar and should militarily intervene to correct the human rights abuses that are South Korea? And on and on and on. > > If not, then why not? Which circumstances warrant our involvement and what sort of involvement? > > The ones that are “center stage” meaning the ones that get press I assume? The ones where we don’t like the leader even if diplomacy had succeeded in converting him from an active supporter of terrorism into a leader who provided information about terror movements? > > Or the ones with oil? I think you need to balance the effects of no intervention with intervention. Because for instance if we intervened in China, it could possibly cause nuclear war killing millions and creating untold misery. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/95 "2011-03-18T02:41:29Z")
And what kind of government does Egypt have.? The military is in charge. That is a good thing? They have a nice power vacuum to fill. Nobody knows what awaits in Egypt either. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/96 "2011-03-18T02:47:04Z")
Egypt is voting on a new constitution in a few days. If the new government is worse than Mubarak I’ll eat my Hedjet. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/97 "2011-03-18T03:04:46Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I think you need to balance the effects of no intervention with intervention. Because for instance if we intervened in China, it could possibly cause nuclear war killing millions and creating untold misery. Okay. 1. It does seem to suggest the construct that a big enough superpower can and should impose its idea of what is right for the people upon any country too small to fight back. 2. What would have been the effects of another US led and manned attempt to allegedly impose what we think is right upon another oil rich country in the MENA region? 3. Do you give any weight to the sort of atrocity as well? To the magnitude of the atrocity? (Does true genocide get a different weight than excessive force in opposing demonstrations?) To the likelihood of success? To the degree that other options exist and the degree to which they have been exhausted? To how it effects our other interests in any way? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/98 "2011-03-18T03:07:44Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Okay. > > 1. It does seem to suggest the construct that a big enough superpower can and should impose its idea of what is right for the people upon any country too small to fight back. > > 2. What would have been the effects of another US led and manned attempt to allegedly impose what we think is right upon another oil rich country in the MENA region? > > 3. Do you give any weight to the sort of atrocity as well? To the magnitude of the atrocity? (Does true genocide get a different weight than excessive force in opposing demonstrations?) To the likelihood of success? To the degree that other options exist and the degree to which they have been exhausted? To how it effects our other interests in any way? 1. No. Only if we are reasonably certain, intervention is better and there is strong support in the local population for it (ie Northern Alliance in Afghanistan and Kurds in Iraq “only place in world Bush would win an election”) 2. If its for oil certainly not, otherwise it is just coincidence since the Middle East is unstable. 3. Definately all those considerations go in as I have noted above. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/99 "2011-03-18T03:59:58Z")
I agree that Obama is a weak push over with no principles or convictions. But that doesn’t mean that Libya is an example of it. We have no national responsibility to overthrow despots. We went into Iraq 10 years ago to overthrow a despot who was much worse for us than Quadaffi, and we are still there spending billions, Americans dying with no end in sight. Meanwhile we no longer have a program for poor people to get heating oil. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/100 "2011-03-18T05:06:57Z")
But in the case of Libya the citizenry itself was rising up and trying to oust him. We and the rest of the world could have offered support in the way of arms and protection via no-fly zones at the very least so that the people of Libya could acheive the self-government that they have been willing to fight and die for. It is absolutely disgusting that we and the rest of the world sat by while Gaddafi used his oil billions to hire mercenaries from other countries to come in and slaughter his own people. And then we have to consider the impact this is going to have on other Middle-East populations who might have been motivated to try to overthrow their own dictators. The message the world has sent them is “We hope you got the guns and money to pull it off 'cause we ain’t gonna lift a finger to help your ass.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684.md?page=6)