# Libya: George W. Bush would had done a better job **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684 "2011-03-14T18:26:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/121 "2011-03-19T12:35:46Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Pardon my ignorance, who is James Corden? A Bing search shows an actor by that name. Got some kind of explanation or link? Thanks Silly joke. It was Comic Relief here in the UK yesterday, and he does a sketch each year as a character called “Smithie” who solves all of the world’s problems, along with lots of stars appearing for charity. Last year he was telling the England football team how to play; this time he was chairing a meeting between a bunch of pop stars, actors, Gordon Brown, Justin Bieber, Paul McCartney, and more abuot who was going to go to Africa to help fix poverty. It was pretty funny, and helps raise money for charity. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/122 "2011-03-19T14:53:28Z")
Gotchaya ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/123 "2011-03-19T16:38:32Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Iraq is a democracy currently and no longer under a brutal dictator and tyrant. It’s in far, far worse condition than it ever was under Saddam Hussein. > [@](#): > > Violence has ended thanks to George W Bush’s defiance of public opinion and Congress to pull out as soon as things got “bad” and instead to implement a “Surge” strategy. Even if violence has ended, which it hasn’t, are you trying to say that excuses invading under false pretenses in the first place? It doesn’t, not even a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/124 "2011-03-19T17:19:29Z")
[Co-ordinated bloodshed](http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook/2010/08/violence_iraq) Violence has not ended in Iraq. It is a mess and will get a lot worse. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/125 "2011-03-19T18:29:57Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook/2010/08/violence\_iraq](http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook/2010/08/violence_iraq) Violence has not ended in Iraq. > It is a mess and will get a lot worse. Some violence=/mass civil war conditions as in 2006-07 ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/126 "2011-03-19T18:51:25Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Some violence=/mass civil war conditions as in 2006-07 Iraq was a country with over half the college students were women. They worked in all manner of jobs and worked in professional positions. They had freedoms and wore western garb when Saddam was in charge. Now they are cowering in their homes. We forced them into an election with hundreds of parties. The religious groups are now at each others throats in an attempt to fill the power vacuum we created. After the election they could not form a government for over an year. I am sure the Iraqis thank you for their new found Utopia. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/127 "2011-03-19T18:56:00Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Iraq was a country with over half the college students were women. They worked in all manner of jobs and worked in professional positions. They had freedoms and wore western garb when Saddam was in charge. Now they are cowering in their homes. We forced them into an election with hundreds of parties. The religious groups are now at each others throats in an attempt to fill the power vacuum we created. After the election they could not form a government for over an year. I am sure the Iraqis thank you for their new found Utopia. Yes because Saddam was such an enlightened despot-with what generosity did he treat the Kurds and the Shias! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/128 "2011-03-20T04:37:14Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Some violence=/mass civil war conditions as in 2006-07 Curtis, to be fair, you need to compare it with the pre-2003 invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/129 "2011-03-20T19:15:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes because Saddam was such an enlightened despot-with what generosity did he treat the Kurds and the Shias! And I’m sure that the nation of Kurdistan is glad that we liberated them and recognized their independence, aren’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Otocor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d07c76/32.png) [@Otocor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otocor)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/130 "2011-03-20T21:58:26Z")
George Bush would have overstepped his bounds - again - and invaded Libya. I don’t understand why people are in such support of this Libya uprising. Moammar Gaddafi ran a peaceful, free and equal nation in which people could work and be happy. What everyone is supporting is strife, uncertainty and the risk of death just by walking down the street. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/131 "2011-03-20T22:10:16Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Iraq is a democracy currently and no longer under a brutal dictator and tyrant. Violence has ended thanks to George W Bush > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Alright, violence has not “ended” in the sense that there is no murder, attack, or shooting in Iraq, but it is a manageable state now, and no longer in borderline civil war conditions. Uh…four bombs detonated _[yesterday](http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/19/iraq.bombs/index.html?iref=allsearch)_, injuring 21 people, _and_ two people were kidnapped. Remember the shoe bomber? _Nothing_ detonated, but it’s affected our national policy and discourse for years. Do you think four bombs and a double kidnapping would be considered “manageable” violence here? Hint: your answer would, in order to be convincing, have to include some sort of argument that four bombs detonating, injuring 21 people, would be _less_ alarming than _nothing_ happening. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Some violence=/mass civil war conditions as in 2006-07 Uh, those civil war conditions were a _direct consequence_ of the invasion you are praising for ending violence. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/132 "2011-03-20T22:45:57Z")
> [@Otocor](#): > > George Bush would have overstepped his bounds - again - and invaded Libya. > > I don’t understand why people are in such support of this Libya uprising. Moammar Gaddafi ran a peaceful, free and equal nation in which people could work and be happy. What everyone is supporting is strife, uncertainty and the risk of death just by walking down the street. Are you trolling or what? Gadaffi was a supporter of terrorism who has murdered his citizens. It is he who is responsible for everything. > [@Sailboat](#): > > Uh…four bombs detonated _[yesterday](http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/19/iraq.bombs/index.html?iref=allsearch)_, injuring 21 people, _and_ two people were kidnapped. > > Remember the shoe bomber? _Nothing_ detonated, but it’s affected our national policy and discourse for years. Do you think four bombs and a double kidnapping would be considered “manageable” violence here? Hint: your answer would, in order to be convincing, have to include some sort of argument that four bombs detonating, injuring 21 people, would be _less_ alarming than _nothing_ happening. Not any worse than in Mexico I should say (or even Detroit if you substitute “shootings” for “bombings”). And nobody’s saying that Mexico’s in a civil war right now. > [@](#): > > Uh, those civil war conditions were a _direct consequence_ of the invasion you are praising for ending violence. And it was inevitable once Saddam died or got overthrown as he would have. Plus while the immediate consequences obviously was bad, Iraq is on a path to a better future due to the liberation. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/133 "2011-03-20T23:03:20Z")
Back to the op. Obama is handling international affairs exactly how he said he would. We had a President who “decided” impulsively and took the US into situations quickly and alone, assuming that everyone else would follow, running roughshod over the objections of most of our allies, and as a result got us left managing horrible circumstances. Obama had declared that he would be a more multilateral President. Need a [refresher](http://www.america.gov/st/usg-english/2008/July/20080725162819dmslahrellek0.840069.html)? > [@](#): > > Obama Emphasizes Multilateral U.S. Foreign Policymaking … “America cannot meet this century’s challenges alone; the world cannot meet them without America,” Obama says. “Today, we are again called to provide visionary leadership.” > > The first-term senator from Illinois and presumed Democratic presidential nominee, is running against Republican Senator John McCain for the U.S presidency. … I do not know how this will end up, but at least this much is true: Obama’s foreign policy is not the US hotdogging it and acting on impulse. He gets a consensus from partners first and communicates with them like they actually are partners, not underlings, and that responsibility for action and inaction falls on them too. France, Britain, The Arab League … they own this now at least as much as we do. And that is a good thing. How would Bush have handled it? Maybe like [McCain says](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/20/mccain-obama-waited-too-long-in-libya/) he would have, acting unilaterally immediately. > [@](#): > > The ranking member of the Senate Armed Services Committee said if the United States had acted a couple weeks ago, before the United Nations issued a cease-fire, a no-fly zone “would probably have been enough” to prevent the situation in the African country from deteriorating. And certainly his former running mate agrees that Obama has been [“dithering”](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/19/if-palin-were-president/). I am very grateful that he is there to take the 4 am calls. He’s smart enough to know that he should have a cup of coffee and make some calls himself rather than run out of the house in his underwear with a pistol. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/134 "2011-03-20T23:30:04Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > And it was inevitable once Saddam died or got overthrown as he would have. Plus while the immediate consequences obviously was bad, Iraq is on a path to a better future due to the liberation. Would you support reducing the United States to the state Iraq’s in for the sake of some undefined better future, due to arrive at some unspecified time, as endorsed by the invaders? It’s because of your simplistic, right-wing nationalist flag-waving coupled with your callous disregard for the lives getting your way will cost that I have no faith in your analysis of what will happen in Libya. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/135 "2011-03-20T23:39:47Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Would you support reducing the United States to the state Iraq’s in for the sake of some undefined better future, due to arrive at some unspecified time, as endorsed by the invaders? It’s because of your simplistic, right-wing nationalist flag-waving coupled with your callous disregard for the lives getting your way will cost that I have no faith in your analysis of what will happen in Libya. Except I am an internationalist, who wishes to set the foundation for a global government by democratizing the world. Not to mention the intervention in Libya is endorsed by all the world. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/136 "2011-03-20T23:41:26Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Not any worse than in Mexico I should say (or even Detroit if you substitute “shootings” for “bombings”). And nobody’s saying that Mexico’s in a civil war right now. Look, that may or may not be the case, but that’s not the argument you made. _You’re moving the goalposts._ Does 4 bombs, injuring 21 people, and a double kidnapping constitute violence or does it not? > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > And it was inevitable once Saddam died or got overthrown as he would have. Moving the goalposts _again_. This one’s even simpler: was 2006-2007 after 2003 or not? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/137 "2011-03-20T23:52:10Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Look, that may or may not be the case, but that’s not the argument you made. _You’re moving the goalposts._ Does 4 bombs, injuring 21 people, and a double kidnapping constitute violence or does it not? Yes and violence=/=civil war. > [@](#): > > Moving the goalposts _again_. This one’s even simpler: was 2006-2007 after 2003 or not? Yes. However after a war a breakdown in conditions is inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Otocor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d07c76/32.png) [@Otocor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otocor)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/138 "2011-03-20T23:57:49Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Are you trolling or what? Gadaffi was a supporter of terrorism who has murdered his citizens. It is he who is responsible for everything. It is a rebellious group of people who are responsible for this. The country was relatively happy before they decided to ruffle the national feathers. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/139 "2011-03-21T00:13:33Z")
> [@Otocor](#): > > On the July 20th Plot: It is a rebellious group of people and Jews who are responsible for this. The country was relatively happy and winning the war before they decided to ruffle the national feathers. Minor edit. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684/140 "2011-03-21T01:34:11Z")
Qin, apologize, it’s against board rules to edit people’s quotes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-george-w-bush-would-had-done-a-better-job/574684.md?page=8)