# Libya to give up all WMDs **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082 "2003-12-20T00:44:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/1 "2003-12-20T00:44:02Z")
Well, breaking news today is that Libya has announced that it is giving up ALL its WMD programs, and allowing full transparent inspections of its country. Here is a text of [Bush’s speech announcing this](http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3528273,00.html). So, is this a sign that Bush’s Middle East policy is working? I seem to recall the anti-war folks on this board saying that the Iraq war would cause the Middle East to erupt into flames, cause a race to get more WMDs by the other outlaw nations in order to prevent an attack, etc. Some of us argued that with Saddam gone there would be less reason to have those weapons (no need to defend against Saddam), and that his ouster would act as a powerful incentive for other dictators to get into line. Plus, we argued that the example of freedom and democracy in the middle of the region would spark pro-democracy movements in other countries, and help crack open the sea of dictatorships in the Middle East. So, is that happening? A couple of days ago I linked to a pro-democracy demonstration in Syria of all places. And now Libya is giving up its WMDs without the U.S. having to fire a shot. Looks like another feather in Bush and Blair’s cap. Comments? ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/2 "2003-12-20T01:12:42Z")
Has Libya been a state sponsor of any terrorist acts in the last 15 years? Have they been any kind of threat to any country in that timeframe? To be blunt, who gives a shit? This is Qaddafi having a moment on the world stage, and nothing else. Now, if Qaddafi stepped down for free elections, I’d think it’s something. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/3 "2003-12-20T01:33:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Surprisingly, the Bush administration’s views towards the sovereign immunity of countries that sponsor terrorism largely followed - rather than reversing - **those of the Clinton Administration**. The Bush State Department quietly continued to oppose what some in the foreign policy community derisively call “diplomacy through litigation.” [Libya, Lockerbie, and the Long-Delayed Settlement](http://writ.corporate.findlaw.com/sebok/20030908.html) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/4 "2003-12-20T01:45:51Z")
> [@](#): > > To be blunt, who gives a shit? This is Qaddafi having a moment on the world stage, and nothing else. Wow. This is an amazing statement. Who gives a shit? We just got one of the most troublesome nations to voluntarily give up its WMD programs, including a pretty advanced nuclear program that was enriching uranium, and was close to achieving a nuclear bomb. He also had a stockpile of chemical weapons. For you to say, “Who gives a shit” speaks volumes for your unwillingness to admit that the Bush administration might have achieved something really positive. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/5 "2003-12-20T01:49:29Z")
Huh? Libya was “close to achieving a nuclear bomb”? 'Fraid I’m gonna have to see a damn good cite on that one. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/6 "2003-12-20T01:57:02Z")
[The CIA last year reported that Libya was nowhere near the Big One](http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/bian_jan_2002.htm#6): > [@](#): > > Libya—an NPT party with full scope IAEA safeguards—continues to develop its nuclear research and development program but would still require significant foreign assistance to advance a nuclear weapons option. The suspension of UN sanctions has accelerated the pace of procurement efforts in Libya’s drive to rejuvenate its ostensibly civilian nuclear program. In January and November 2000, for example, Tripoli and Moscow renewed talks on cooperation at the Tajura Nuclear Research Center and discussed a potential power reactor deal. Should such civil-sector work come to fruition, Libya could gain opportunities to pursue technologies that could be diverted for military purposes. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/7 "2003-12-20T02:02:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > . . including a pretty advanced nuclear program that was enriching uranium, and was close to achieving a nuclear bomb. He also had a stockpile of chemical weapons. Anyone else getting a serious case of deja vu ? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/8 "2003-12-20T02:11:16Z")
In this case, it isn’t speculation, because inspection teams have already been into Libya: [Libya To Give Up Weapons Programs](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3762401/) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON - Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi has admitted trying to develop weapons of mass destruction but now plans to dismantle all such programs, President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair said Friday. > > advertisement > > Bush said Libya’s decision — which would open the country to international weapons inspectors — would be “of great importance” in stopping weapons of mass destruction in a global fight against terrorism. > > Britain and the United States have been talking about the issue with Libya for nine months, Blair said. > > “Libya came to us in March following successful negotiations on Lockerbie to see if it could resolve its weapons of mass destruction issue in a similarly cooperative manner,” Blair said in England. > > At the White House, Bush said the war in Iraq and efforts to stop North Korea’s nuclear program had sent a clear message to countries such as Libya that they must abandon weapons programs. > > “In word and in action, we have clarified the choices left to potential adversaries,” Bush said. That was an apparent reference to Iran and North Korea, two other countries that the United States contends are trying to develop weapons of mass destruction. > > Without naming them, Bush added: “I hope other leaders will find an example” in Libya’s action. > > If Libya follows through with its commitment, Bush said, “its good faith can be returned.” > > ‘Close to developing’ nuclear bomb > Britain said Libya was close to making a nuclear bomb and had significant quantities of chemical agents before it reached the deal announced on Friday to abandon weapons of mass destruction. > … > The team saw nuclear projects underway at more than 10 sites, including the enrichment of uranium. It also saw dual-use sites with the potential to support work on biological weapons. ---
**Author:** ![esquimalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@esquimalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esquimalt)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/9 "2003-12-20T02:13:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Huh? Libya was “close to achieving a nuclear bomb”? 'Fraid I’m gonna have to see a damn good cite on that one. \*\* [Cite](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L19652579.htm) ---
**Author:** ![JamesCarroll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@JamesCarroll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JamesCarroll)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/10 "2003-12-20T02:22:08Z")
Squink: I don’t get your point. Are you saying that Clinton deserves the credit for Libya? Maybe you should have included the next paragraph: > [@](#): > > Why? There are a number of possible reasons. First, no administration, **regardless of its politics** , likes to cede power to other actors in foreign policy–especially non-state actors such as the ordinary citizens who become tort plaintiffs. The fact of the matter is that there is enough credit to go not just to GW, but to Reagan as well for sending a clear message to governments that if you pull this kind of stuff we will come after you. GW is just reminding them of Reagan’s commiment. Its too bad they forgot it durning the 8 years that Clinton was too busy getting his willy wacked to do anything significant about things like [The USS Cole](http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/USS-Cole-bombing) > [@](#): > > Then-President Bill Clinton declared “If, as it now appears, this was an act of terrorism, it was a despicable and cowardly act. We will find out who was responsible and hold them accountable.”. Of course, strictly speaking, it was not an “act of terrorism,” since it was an attack on a military target. **In any case, no action was taken**. [The Embassy Bombings](http://www.infoplease.com/spot/newsfacts-sudanstrikes.html) > [@](#): > > In 1998, the Clinton Administration demonstrated an **atypically** aggressive response toward terrorism after the assault on two U.S. embassies in Africa. On Aug. 7, 1998, the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, were bombed by terrorists, \*\* leaving 258 people dead and more than 5,000 injured.\*\* [19 Soldires killed](http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9606/25/saudi.explosion/) or any of the [77 significant terrorist attacks](http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/terror_chron.html) that happened during his tenure. Yup, that Clinton was a real force for peace and protecting the world from terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/11 "2003-12-20T02:46:48Z")
**Post Iraq Ergo Propter Iraq** : the logical fallacy that assumes that any good thing that results after May, 2004, is the direct consequence of American action in Iraq. As for **Werewolf’s** sense of _deja voodoo_, I can top that. I had the TV off and turned on CNN just in time to hear a buzz of words “Libya…important announcement…Bush…” Oh, no, I thought. Oh, fucking no! And then I remembered: our army is already deployed! We would have to hit the shores of Tripoli with Eagle Scouts! First off, it seems to me this is more a matter of Quadaffy Duck wising up than any thing else. This thing has been in the works since the Libyans began moving to settle the Lockerbie issue. Indeed, GeeDubya himself noted that the discussions had been underway for nine months, some time before our glorious adventure began in earnest. One couldn’t help but notice in GeeDubyas eager clamor for the laurels **Sam** is even more eager to bestow, he couldn’t help taking a passing effort: his perfectly hilarious suggestion that the US was acting to enforce the will of the very UN he so heartily bitch-slapped only a few months before. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/12 "2003-12-20T03:05:55Z")
I said “a damn good cite,” **esquimalt**. You don’t seriously expect me to take Bush and Blair’s word for something relating to WMD’s, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/13 "2003-12-20T03:14:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Huh? Libya was “close to achieving a nuclear bomb”? 'Fraid I’m gonna have to see a damn good cite on that one. \*\* The science of making such a weapon can be found at your nearest university. I’m sure Libya has at least 1 citizen that is capable of it. The “art” of making a weapon is more complicated and requires time. Making it small enough to mount on a missile requires money. In 1980 it was an absolute certainty that smaller nations would perfect a nuclear weapon. Iraq was slowed by Israel so Pakistan was first out of the gate in that region. Now you have India and N Korea. Soon you will have Iran. What makes Libya so inept? Why would they NOT attempt it, given the events of Lockerbie? ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/14 "2003-12-20T03:22:26Z")
[http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/libya/](http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/libya/) “Libya is no position to obtain access to nuclear weapons in the foreseeable future, given the extremely limited domestic technical base of the country.” “Libya’s biological warfare program is believed to remain in the early research and development phase. Progress has been slow due in part to an inadequate scientific and technical base” “Libya has experienced major setbacks to its chemical warfare program, first as a result of intense public scrutiny focused on its Rabta facility in the late 1980s and more recently on its Tarhuna underground facility. Nevertheless, Libya retains a small inventory of chemical weap-ons, as well as the a CW agent production capability.” So basically Libya has a few chemical weapons but little else. Getting it to abandon this is hardly some great geo-political coup. In particular it’s marginal compared to the enormous failure so far of the Bush policy towards North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/15 "2003-12-20T03:28:55Z")
Lybia had started to turn around many years ago. Maybe the Reagan ordered bombing started it and the UN sanctions reinforced it but I do not think recent events have had any decisive effect. If I had to choose one single factor I would say the UN sanctions. Lybia had been wanting to get rid of the sanctions for a long time and had been working toward that end. It has recently signed contracts with several European countries for the sale of natural gas and for the construction of an underwater gasoduct to Italy. Spanish prime minister Aznar visited Ghadaffi in Lybia some months ago to talk trade and other issues. I think sanctions and trade are the key here. I doubt Iraq had anything to do. Especially since this course was started way before Iraq or even before 9/11/2001. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/16 "2003-12-20T03:36:26Z")
CyberPundit, You left out a few quotes from the same article: \*In 1975 Libya had ratified the United Nations (UN) Nuclear NonProliferation Treaty signed by the Idris regime in 1969. In 1980 an agreement was reached with the International Atomic Energy Agency placing all of Libya’s nuclear installations under international inspection. Despite these steps, in the mid- and late 1970s, \*\*Qadhafi repeatedly proclaimed his country’s determination to acquire nuclear weapons, primarily because he was convinced that his archenemy, Israel, had achieved such a military capability. \*\* A 10-megawatt nuclear research reactor supplied by the Soviet Union in 1979 was installed at a research center at Tajura near Tripoli staffed by 750 Libyan specialists and technicians. Many students were sent abroad; a group of 200 was studying in the United States until early 1983 when the United States proscribed training Libyans in nuclear science Libya had a theoretical capability of delivering nuclear weapons in the form of Scud and FROG missiles and missiles delivered by medium-range Tu-22 bombers\* ---
**Author:** ![esquimalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@esquimalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esquimalt)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/17 "2003-12-20T03:40:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*I said “a damn good cite,” **esquimalt**. You don’t seriously expect me to take Bush and Blair’s word for something relating to WMD’s, do you? \*\* There is quite a few other cites reporting the same thing. Basically the Libyans are admitting it so you do not have to believe Bush & Blair you can now believe Gadhafi (must be comforting). ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/18 "2003-12-20T03:41:43Z")
I guess the next stage is to put WMD Inspectors on the ground, withdraw then and then invade . . . ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/19 "2003-12-20T03:43:28Z")
So what? Quadhafi proclaimed his “determination” to acquire nuclear weapons in the 70’s. Big deal. He didn’t have the means to actually acquire them. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/20 "2003-12-20T03:47:27Z")
I proclaimed my determination to dance like Sid Vicious and sing like John Travolta in the 70s, and I haven’t been right since. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082.md?page=2)