# Libya to give up all WMDs **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082 "2003-12-20T00:44:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/21 "2003-12-20T03:47:50Z")
For that matter, who won’t? When nuclear weaponry is available so far down the line as Gabon and Upper Volta? The issue is as it was: not so much a matter of who can, but who dares? The patient containment of Libya’s threat, combined with the clear advantages from “normalization”, led to a highly desireable result. But it is a demonstration of _precisely_ those principles of restraint and diplomacy that us wooly-thinking peaceniks find so agreeable. If there is a crowning absurdity to all of this, it must be these: that Libya very likely had the WMD’s we so feared, and Saddam did not. We know, for a certainty, that Libya was directly connected to a terrorist plot that cost the lives of Americans. Cold, hard fact. As to Saddam’s involvement with anything of the sort, we have only the most gossamer conjectures, that fall apart at the touch. So, of course, we invade Iraq and arrest Saddam for trial. Libya, Quadaffy Duck: we cut a deal. Unless, of course, someone is going to suggest that Qaddaffy intends to turn himself over to us? No, I thought not. So what lesson should our potential friends and allies take from all of this? What guiding principle do we demonstrate our allegiance to, when we conjure up a war out of whole cloth in one instance, and make deals with a man we _know_ has committed the very crimes we accuse Saddam of, in the other. ---
**Author:** ![esquimalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@esquimalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esquimalt)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/22 "2003-12-20T03:51:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*I proclaimed my determination to dance like Sid Vicious and sing like John Travolta in the 70s, and I haven’t been right since. \*\* Why would you want to sing like John Travolta? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/23 "2003-12-20T03:52:35Z")
Exactly! ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/24 "2003-12-20T03:56:35Z")
This is pathetic. Get back to me when North Korea, a real threat - they actually fired missiles over a Japanese island - run by a total wackjob that probably actually has nuclear weapons, is cowed into giving up its WMDs. I’m sure you missed it in your rush to post this, but the other real threat, the ones who actually killed people and destroyed stuff here in the US, in Bali, in Tanzania and Kenya, and off the shores of Yemen, managed to kill a little rally in the stock markets and in the dollar today because of a mere rumor of a bomber in NYC. That’s the real threat. The propaganda BS just never ends… Oh, and Scott Ritter was right. Just in case you forgot. ---
**Author:** ![esquimalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@esquimalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esquimalt)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/25 "2003-12-20T03:58:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*Exactly! \*\* I think you better see if that white leisure suit still fits. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/26 "2003-12-20T04:04:56Z")
Great post **sailor**! The only think I’d add to it is the Lockerbie case that’s been like a millstone around Libya’s neck for years. With that _nearly_ dealt with, a few piddling concessions on weapons were all that stood between Libya and reintegration with the world. I’d bet that wild horses couldn’t have prevented khadafi from cutting this deal. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/27 "2003-12-20T04:18:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CyberPundit \* > \*\*So what? Quadhafi proclaimed his “determination” to acquire nuclear weapons in the 70’s. Big deal. He didn’t have the means to actually acquire them. \*\* So he stated his intentions, purchased a nuclear power plant, sent 200 students into the field to learn how, has the oil revenue to fund it, and exhibited terrorist actions by shooting down an airliner. \*\* That’s what\*\*. It proves nothing but motive, means, intent, and prior actions. Add to that a politically willing neighbor (Pakistan) and you have a conduit for all of Quadhafi’s needs. The Pakistani Government need not be a willing participant. There is plenty of dissent from within to collude with Libya. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/28 "2003-12-20T04:23:40Z")
Pakistan’s a neighbor of Libya???!!!???!!! So let’s see, that would make Iran France, more or less, and Saudi Arabia gets to be Spain. I suppose Yemen can qualify as Portugal if you kind of look at it sideways or something. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/29 "2003-12-20T04:26:03Z")
By that reasoning, it’s time to invade Germany again. Look out, Krauts! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/30 "2003-12-20T04:27:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pantom \* > \*\*Pakistan’s a neighbor of Libya???!!!???!!! > So let’s see, that would make Iran France, more or less, and Saudi Arabia gets to be Spain. I suppose Yemen can qualify as Portugal if you kind of look at it sideways or something. \*\* Yes, Pakistan has a populace that would simpathise with Libya. What the hell are you talking about, geography? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/31 "2003-12-20T04:31:02Z")
That would be “sympathize”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/32 "2003-12-20T04:42:36Z")
Gotta wonder about the English involvement in all of this. Seems likely to me that most of the groundwork was laid between Libya and England, since there wasn’t any history of acitive military belligerance between the two. And I would bet Blair laid out the terms before he even called Washington: inspections, destruction, pay the money, the whole nine yards. And its likely he used GeeDubya’s “cowboy” mentality as a bargaining chip, like the “Crazy Nixon” ploy of Kissinger. “Look, it’s all right with me, mate, but GeeDubya, well, he’s a wee bit trigger happy of late. You may have to cave on the inspectors being American and British and not UN. They’re not real keen on UN inspectors, you know…” So, perhaps, a benefit. But consider this: if it wavers between peace and war, between us and another potential enemy… You are, say, the Maximum Leader of Oceania, and America is pissed at you. You have weapons that would sharply injure America, but cannot hope to defeat America in any strategic sense: weapons of terror, perhaps, or 2nd rate nukes. And keeping in mind the lesson: that Iraq made highly placed signals in the 11th hour, promising everything that Libya promised. And that feeler was rebuked, because war is the preferred course. Would you be more inclined towards a _kamikaze_ type attack of futile defiance? Or less? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/33 "2003-12-20T04:46:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*By that reasoning, it’s time to invade Germany again. Look out, Krauts! \*\* Germany shot down an airline? Fox news is REALLY dropping the ball. Sarcasm aside, Libya launched a terrorist attack in the past. To the extent Quadaffi has reformed is the point of the debate. You are saying he never intended or was incapable of making them and Quadaffi is saying he will get out of the WMD business. Who’s right? I hope Syria and Iran don’t start making overtures to the US. The internet bickering might trigger another power outage. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/34 "2003-12-20T04:47:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > \*\*Yes, Pakistan has a populace that would simpathise with Libya. What the hell are you talking about, geography? \*\* Isn’t that what the word “neighbor” means? ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/35 "2003-12-20T04:51:23Z")
Yeah, **Magiver**. You said Pakistan was a neighbor of Libya; that’s a straightforward statement of geography, and it’s easily refuted by looking at a map. Their population may sympathize with Libya’s in a fight against the US, but the transport of weapons from Pakistan to Libya would involve somewhat more of a logistical headache than that which is implied by the word “neighbor”. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/36 "2003-12-20T04:53:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*Isn’t that what the word “neighbor” means? \*\* By all means, explain it to me. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/37 "2003-12-20T05:03:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > By all means, explain it to me. Sometimes this gets to be surreal. You don’t have a dictionary? You can’t type in your browser’s address line [www.dictionary.com](http://www.dictionary.com) ? Ok, here is what Webster’s says: > [@](#): > > one living or located near another ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/38 "2003-12-20T05:08:02Z")
Yes, that’s the correct meaning of the word. If it only meant “adjacent to” then a neighborhood would consist of only 3 houses. Libya, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan are all Muslim neighbors. NEXT ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/39 "2003-12-20T05:08:51Z")
I found the Bible uses “Neighbor” with the meaning of “kindred human being” rather than “guy who lives next door” but this seems to be a usage restricted to the Bible (and maybe some archaic or formal writing). I have never seen it used this way in common writing or conversation. v. neigh·bored, neigh·bor·ing, neigh·bors v. tr. To lie close to or border directly on. v. intr. To live or be situated close by. adj. Situated or living near another: a neighbor state ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/40 "2003-12-20T05:12:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > \*\*Yes, that’s the correct meaning of the word. If it only meant “adjacent to” then a neighborhood would consist of only 3 houses. > > Libya, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan are all Muslim neighbors. > > NEXT \*\* By that rule of three any two people living in the same city are neighbors and any two countries on the same landmass are neighbors. I think this is an abuse of the word. For instance, I have always seen “neighboring countries” to mean “countries sharing a common border”. Can you find a few cites of the usage you propose? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082.md?page=3)