# Libya to give up all WMDs **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082 "2003-12-20T00:44:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/41 "2003-12-20T05:29:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > Gotta wonder about the English involvement in all of this. Sure, relations between the UK and Libya have been moving through and up the informal and then formal channels for around four years; the UK has kind of played a shepherding role, helping Libya ease it’s way back into the ‘international community’. If anyone’s interested, this details the diplomatic moves year-on-year: [http://www.britain-in-libya.org/news-br-ly.htm](http://www.britain-in-libya.org/news-br-ly.htm) - would seem to be a relationship initially born of the interaction around the Lockerbie trial (held in Scotland). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/42 "2003-12-20T05:31:45Z")
I guess I have to go down to the end of the block and tell those people I’m no longer their neighbor. I read what you post and it explains my point? **one living or located near another**. What next? Are we now going to dissect the word “near” as in “Near East”? I lay down my sword, for sleep draws sharper nigh, and nearer still the need for peaceful quiet. (this week sucked, and I’m going to bed) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/43 "2003-12-20T05:43:03Z")
So let me get this straight: Libya defies the U.S. and the world community for 20 years. But the U.S. and Britain engage in 9 months of tough diplomacy, followed by whack-a-moling Saddam. Within a week of Saddam seeing his shadow and coming out of his hole, Libya caves and gives the U.S. and Britain everything they want, with no apparent quid-pro-quo. From this we are to conclude that, 1. The U.N. did it. 2. Who cares, it’s irrelevant. 3. Neighbor doesn’t mean what you think it means 4. Let’s fight about whether Libya had nukes. You people are simply not serious. You’re too consumed with not giving the Bush administration any credit at all that it’s clouding your judgement. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/44 "2003-12-20T05:51:55Z")
Sigh. Oh, **Sam** , your loyalty would be so admirable, if only it was spent on men more worthy. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/45 "2003-12-20T06:26:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > So let me get this straight: Libya defies the U.S. and the world community for 20 years. But the U.S. and Britain engage in 9 months of tough diplomacy, followed by whack-a-moling Saddam. Within a week of Saddam seeing his shadow and coming out of his hole, Libya caves and gives the U.S. and Britain everything they want, with no apparent quid-pro-quo. > > From this we are to conclude that, > > 1. The U.N. did it. > 2. Who cares, it’s irrelevant. > 3. Neighbor doesn’t mean what you think it means > 4. Let’s fight about whether Libya had nukes. > > You people are simply not serious. You’re too consumed with not giving the Bush administration any credit at all that it’s clouding your judgement. Libya has been negotiating with the West for a period of time even preceding the Iraq war. Blair himself said that Gaddafi wanted to negotiate the issue of WMDs back in March. The bone thrown to Gaddafi: return to the international community in good standing. That is the quid-pro-quo you conveniently ignore. Your linking this to Saddam’s capture tells me how much you are consumed by lust for the Bush administration instead of looking at this issue objectively within its full context. I am not claiming the Iraq war had nothing to do with this announcement but to call it a “caving” in the aftermath of Saddam’s arrest…well, I have already said it. (The neighbor reference was a pathetic way to belittle the people arguing against your premise. You KNOW fully well it had nothing to do with your OP. All GD threads have small tangential arguments between posters.) ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/46 "2003-12-20T06:26:49Z")
Tripoli to Islamabad 3418 miles Tripoli to Stockholm 1847 miles [How far is it?](http://www.indo.com/distance/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/47 "2003-12-20T07:07:26Z")
I agree that the negotiations have been going on for some time. I would argue that if the U.S. had backed down, packed up its military and left Saddam in place, this offer with Libya would not exist. The war (and by implication, the realization that the U.S. was perfectly willing to follow through with threats) essentially put the U.S. in the driver’s seat in these negotiations. Same with Syria, although Syria has been more intractible. But the U.S. is clearly dealing from a position of strength now. This has rewards. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/48 "2003-12-20T07:24:25Z")
While it’s always good to see a nation renounce WMDs (or at least say they will, to open the door for formal inspections of WMD absence), let’s not overinflate Libya’s importance too much here. Can anyone here _honestly_ say that they believed, just one week ago, that Libya was any sort of major terrorist threat to the world? I mean, Great Debates has been bubbling in terrorism-talk for months now, and there have been numerous mentions of terrorist threats. But while Iran and Syria and Pakistan and North Korea gets the lion’s share of the worries, Libya has been off everyone’s collective radar, because _nobody seriously considered them a threat._ In the end, **Sam Stone’s** tooting of the Administration’s horn is like the capture of Saddam Hussein – a lot of noise for a relatively minor player. Forget Libya and Saddam, let’s deal with some _real_ threats, like North Korea and Osama bin Laden, mmmkay? ---
**Author:** ![gouda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c77e96/32.png) [@gouda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gouda)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/49 "2003-12-20T08:17:51Z")
**Magiver** may have abused the word ‘neighbor’, but his concern is not unfounded. Distance didn’t hamper any Pakistani adventures with N. Korea. Yes, Libya’s decision to open its doors to inspections perhaps have been influenced by GWB, and for that credit where it is due. But Libya?? Even you gotta admit **sam** , that this is going to make no difference to global security. If GWB’s actions had a similar effect in Afghanistan or in N. Korea, then yeah, I’d give the man a standing ovation… but for this? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/50 "2003-12-20T08:27:54Z")
Where are you guys getting the notion that Libya is irrelevant or small potatos? Libya has always been one of the bigger threats of WMD and terrorism. Here, read what [GlobalSecurity.org](http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/libya/index.html) has to say about Libya. This is a big damned thing. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/51 "2003-12-20T09:00:43Z")
Wow, **Sam** , that _is_ big. :rolleyes: From your cite: > [@](#): > > **Libyan Nuclear Weapons** > > At one time, some observers classified Libya among the most dangerous countries from the standpoint of the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear weapons. But in recent years, concerns about Libyan nuclear ambitions have faded, though apprehensions about Libyan chemical weapons efforts remain very much alive. Libya is in no position to obtain access to nuclear weapons in the foreseeable future, given the extremely limited domestic technical base of the country. > > **Libyan Biological Warfare** > > While Libya has had a biological warfare program for many years, it remains in the early research and development stages, primarily because Libya lacks an adequate scientific and technical base. The program also suffers from the difficulty Libya has acquiring needed foreign equipment and technical expertise, partly due to current UN sanctions. However, Libya is trying to develop an indigenous capability and may be able to produce laboratory quantities of agent. Given the overall limitations of the program, it is unlikely that Libya will be able to transition from laboratory work to production of militarily useful quantities of biological warfare agent until well after the turn of the century. > > Libya acceded to the BWC in 1982. > > **Libyan Chemical Weapons** > > Libya has had the most success with its chemical warfare program. Libya has experienced major setbacks to its chemical warfare program, first as a result of intense public scrutiny focused on its Rabta facility in the late 1980s and more recently on its Tarhuna underground facility. Nevertheless, Libya retains a small inventory of chemical weapons, as well as the a CW agent production capability. > > During the 1980s, it succeeded in producing up to 100 tons of blister and nerve agent at its Rabta facility, built with foreign assistance. Libya is estimated to have stockpiled 100 tons of Nerve and Blister Agent produced at its Rabat plant, the largest single CW facility in the Third World. A metal fabrication plant adjacent to the Rabat CW plant can produce bombs and artillery rounds. After intense media attention was focused on the facility, it was closed in 1990, although the Libyans announced its reopening in September 1995 as a pharmaceutical facility. The Rabta facility remains capable of producing chemical agents. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/52 "2003-12-20T09:13:22Z")
**Desmostylus** : Israel disagreed with this assessment of Libya’s nuclear program, and kept claiming it was more advanced than the U.S. thought. The news reports I read today said that initial disclosures of the WMD programs proved the Israelis correct. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/53 "2003-12-20T09:21:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JamesCarroll \* > Its too bad they forgot it durning the 8 years that Clinton was too busy getting his willy wacked to do anything significant about things like > > [The USS Cole](http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/USS-Cole-bombing) Funny you should mention that, because according to [Time Magazine](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,333835,00.html), the Clinton Administration had a comprehensive plan in place to take out Al Qaeda, but didn’t have time to enact it before Bush became president. During Clinton’s term, Richard Clarke had developed a plan which _“called for the ‘breakup’ of al-Qaeda cells and the arrest of their personnel. The financial support for its terrorist activities would be systematically attacked, its assets frozen, its funding from fake charities stopped”_ and: > [@](#): > > With less than a month left in office, they did not think it appropriate to launch a major initiative against Osama bin Laden. “We would be handing (the Bush Administration) a war when they took office on Jan. 20,” says a former senior Clinton aide. “That wasn’t going to happen.” Now it was up to [Condoleeza] Rice’s team to consider what Clarke had put together. > [@](#): > > In the words of a senior Bush Administration official, the proposals amounted to “everything we’ve done since 9/11.” But it seems that the Bush Administration put the plan on the back burner until it was too late: > [@](#): > > The proposals Clarke developed in the winter of 2000-01 were not given another hearing by top decision makers until late April, and then spent another four months making their laborious way through the bureaucracy before they were readied for approval by President Bush Despite Clarke’s efforts to get the Bush Administration to take action, they continued to drag their feet: > [@](#): > > As the new Administration took office, Rice kept Clarke in his job as counterterrorism czar. In early February, he repeated to Vice President Dick Cheney the briefing he had given to Rice and Hadley. There are differing opinions on how seriously the Bush team took Clarke’s wwarnings. Some members of the outgoing Administration got the sense that the Bush team thought the Clintonites had become obsessed with terrorism. “It was clear,” says one, “that this was not the same priority to them that it was to us.” Also, Clinton _had_ tried to take out Bin Laden: > [@](#): > > Despite the occasional abortive raid, they never seemed to get close to bin Laden. That meant that the Clinton team had to fall back on a second strategy: taking out bin Laden by cruise missile, which had been tried after the embassy bombings in 1998. For all of 2000, sources tell Time, Clinton ordered two U.S. Navy submarines to stay on station in the northern Arabian Sea, ready to attack if bin Laden’s coordinates could be determined. > > But the plan was twice flawed. First, the missiles could be used only if bin Laden’s whereabouts were known, and the CIA never definitively delivered that information. By early 2000, Clinton was becoming infuriated by the lack of intelligence on bin Laden’s movements. “We’ve got to do better than this,” he scribbled on one memo. “This is unsatisfactory.” Hope I’m not quoting too much of the article; there’s a lot more stuff in there. I really get weary of the “blame Clinton for everything” crowd.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/54 "2003-12-20T09:24:04Z")
Look, you said: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Sam Stone_ > \*\*Here, read what [GlobalSecurity.org](http://GlobalSecurity.org) has to say about Libya. > > This is a big damned thing.\*\* So I read it. It says what I quoted. Your cite obviously doesn’t support your claim that “This is a big damned thing”. You got better cites, produce them and quote from them. How many rolleyes you want next time? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/55 "2003-12-20T12:03:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*Look, you said:So I read it. It says what I quoted. Your cite obviously doesn’t support your claim that “This is a big damned thing”. > > You got better cites, produce them and quote from them. (From the cite that you quoted) > > How many rolleyes you want next time? \*\* I don’t suppose the following qualifies as ‘big’? > [@](#): > > “Libya is estimated to have stockpiled 100 tons of Nerve and Blister Agent produced at its Rabat plant, **the largest single CW facility in the Third World**.” Bolding mine. **Sam** is in for heartbreak and disappointment if he expects the rabid anti-Bush crowd to acknowledge anything good about GW. Said crowd has long since left the realm of the rational far behind. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/56 "2003-12-20T12:12:54Z")
OoooWeee! I love it when the\*\*\* Bushbangers\*\*\* start whining about the relative merits of a “big damned thing” and the true-blue, absolute meaning of the word “neighbors”. You would think that after Bush caught Saddam they would just roll over and say “thank you”. This is fun. And oh yes, I almost forgot, someone caught a spelling error too. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/57 "2003-12-20T12:35:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > **I don’t suppose the following qualifies as ‘big’?** No it doesn’t. I guess it _sounds_ big if you don’t know that the agents they’re talking about only have a useful life of a few years. Now, roughly twenty years later, there can’t possibly be any useful remnants from that stockpile. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/58 "2003-12-20T12:48:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*No it doesn’t. I guess it _sounds_ big if you don’t know that the agents they’re talking about only have a useful life of a few years. Now, roughly twenty years later, there can’t possibly be any useful remnants from that stockpile. \*\* But golly, **Desmo** , from the same cite, we get: > [@](#): > > After intense media attention was focused on the facility, it was closed in 1990, although the Libyans announced its reopening in September 1995 as a pharmaceutical facility. **The Rabta facility remains capable of producing chemical agents.** Bolding mine. Given the lack of eagle-eyed UN inspectors at the site, how do we know that hot 'n fresh sarin hasn’t been made? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/59 "2003-12-20T13:09:18Z")
Given that not even Dumsfeld has claimed that there _has_ been fresh Sarin manufactured there, it’s a pretty safe bet that there hasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![happytrails](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c2a13f/32.png) [@happytrails](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happytrails)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082/60 "2003-12-20T14:37:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*Anyone else getting a serious case of deja vu ? \*\* Yep. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-to-give-up-all-wmds/220082.md?page=4)