# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/221 "2011-02-22T17:09:51Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > [This one?](http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01831/v-girl_1831380i.jpg) Yes - that is the photo. I hope see survives this turmoil and her family as well - all Libyans who have protested. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/222 "2011-02-22T17:14:17Z")
> [@Agnostic\_Pagan](#): > > Ah, it is not up now. It was on the Daily Mail site that **davidm** linked to. Hopefully it will reappear. It was an AP photo of young girl, wearing a helmet looted from a soldier I assume, flashing a peace sign. I’ll see if I can find it. Wait, what does that gesture actually mean in contemporary Libyan culture – “peace,” or “victory”? (Or something else?) ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/223 "2011-02-22T17:16:05Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > If the UN formally requests that the US impose a no fly zone then that’s fine. I have no doubt that Obama will do the right thing. Until that happens, you aren’t seriously saying the the US should act unilaterally on this are you? I don’t see Obama doing that, and I would agree with him…we shouldn’t act unilaterally on this. > > -XT I meant to ask this earlier, but what if it was officially a NATO action, preferably with the Europeans doing most of the flying? ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/224 "2011-02-22T17:17:10Z")
Confirmed - Helicopters in Tripoli hovering around and now the protesters have got their hands on machine guns with ammo. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/225 "2011-02-22T17:20:40Z")
Gaddafi’s speech has finally finished. He gets his hand kissed by a loyalit and waves to what appears to be about half a dozen senior officers still listening. State TV now showing thousands of people cheering… Talking about Gaddafi’s address on state television, Ibrahim Jibreel, a Libyan political analyst told Al Jazeera: “there was no substance to this… There was really no message to this besides the threats”. “The interesting thing is that Libya has no constitution but he has threatened the death penalty for people who fail to follow the constituion,” Jibreel said. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/226 "2011-02-22T17:23:35Z")
[QUOTE=asterion] I meant to ask this earlier, but what if it was officially a NATO action, preferably with the Europeans doing most of the flying? [/QUOTE] NATO couldn’t take action as far as I know, since it’s a defensive treaty. Individual European countries could, of course, intervene. France and the UK would probably be the best able to provide some sort of interdiction assistance. I doubt they would act without UN authorization either, though. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/227 "2011-02-22T17:24:43Z")
Col Gaddafi finishes his speech after an hour-and-a-quarter with the threat to “cleanse Libya house by house” if the protesters don’t surrender. Eyewitnesses in Tripoli tell BBC Arabic there is shooting on the streets of the capital. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/228 "2011-02-22T17:26:41Z")
BTW, did anyone else notice that for the first time since 1979 Iran has sent warships through the Suez in a gesture similar to how America always sent fleets from the Gulf through the Suez and into the Med when trouble would kick up? That says something about Egypt’s stance towards Iran if nothing else… (wonder how Iran sending warships into the Med through the Suez will be taken by Israel, as well as by the countries currently having issues with their population) -XT ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/229 "2011-02-22T17:27:40Z")
I honestly think that delusional, insulting, threatening performance of his will incense the protesters even further - it can’t be long before he’s gone now, God willing. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/230 "2011-02-22T17:32:24Z")
[QUOTE=Bibliovore] I honestly think that delusional, insulting, threatening performance of his will incense the protesters even further - it can’t be long before he’s gone now, God willing. [/QUOTE] It’s going to depend on how far his loyalists in the military are willing to push this before throwing in the towel…and how many in the military ARE real hard core loyalists. Based on some of his ambassadors in other countries, his core of real loyalists is wearing pretty thin. It’s also going to depend on how realistic those loyalists actually are…are they really willing to not only kill their fellow citizens in huge numbers but to die rather than submit? -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/231 "2011-02-22T17:32:30Z")
If the opposition really controls the east, including the army units there, then maybe it’s time they got organized and started marching west. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/232 "2011-02-22T18:21:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Wait, what does that gesture actually mean in contemporary Libyan culture – “peace,” or “victory”? (Or something else?) Either one works. Of course, if her hand was turned around, that would mean something else completely. Still appropriate, but a different message. [QUOTE=xtisme] (wonder how Iran sending warships into the Med through the Suez will be taken by Israel, as well as by the countries currently having issues with their population) [/QUOTE] [Israel not happy.](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12533803) I wonder if they would try a ‘bump’ maneuver like the US and Soviets used to do? Or least shadow them very closely as they sail up the coast. According to the article, it had been the works long before the wave of uprisings, and while it the best of the Iranian fleet, it’s no match for contemporary frigates. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/233 "2011-02-22T18:31:14Z")
They don’t have to be a match for Israeli frigates, they have to be a match for Israeli aircraft. And they aren’t. Frankly, I don’t know why everyone’s getting so worked up about this - it’s not like they’re capable of doing anything. All they’ve done is come into range. If Bibi had balls, he’d be, “Ships? What ships? You call those _ships_? Gimme a break.” But of course, scaremongering is just about the only thing his government is good for. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/234 "2011-02-22T18:44:50Z")
Some are criticizing Obama for not having even made a public statement about this yet. Really, what should he say? In the Arab world, whichever side the U.S. supports immediately becomes less popular. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/235 "2011-02-22T18:50:37Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > NATO couldn’t take action as far as I know, since it’s a defensive treaty. Individual European countries could, of course, intervene. France and the UK would probably be the best able to provide some sort of interdiction assistance. I doubt they would act without UN authorization either, though. I’d be really surprised if China and Russia permitted a UNSC resolution to be adopted authorizing action against a state because it is using military force on its own citizens. > [@xtisme](#): > > It’s going to depend on how far his loyalists in the military are willing to push this before throwing in the towel…and how many in the military ARE real hard core loyalists. Based on some of his ambassadors in other countries, his core of real loyalists is wearing pretty thin. > > It’s also going to depend on how realistic those loyalists actually are…are they really willing to not only kill their fellow citizens in huge numbers but to die rather than submit? The loyalists may think that it’s too late to submit, that they would be liquidated by any new regime anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/236 "2011-02-22T19:05:39Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I’d be really surprised if China and Russia permitted a UNSC resolution to be adopted authorizing action against a state because it is using military force on its own citizens. Especially Russia. I doubt they have many qualms about the spike in the oil prices, or its cause. But I doubt Putin gives a rat’s ass whether Qaddafi falls or not. > [@](#): > > The loyalists may think that it’s too late to submit, that they would be liquidated by any new regime anyway. I think it will make a difference if they surrender or if they are captured - if they get either option. They certainly aren’t giving any reasons why the rebels/protesters would. Hoping to see more defections. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/237 "2011-02-22T19:15:56Z")
The assholes name can’t even be spelled properly. it is Ga-daffy. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/238 "2011-02-22T19:33:22Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > The BBC’s security correspondent Frank Gardner, who has met the Libyan leader before, says the address seemed to be coming from an army barracks in Tripoli - appearing to confirm that he has not left the capital. _[The Family Circus](http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/9471/p043s.jpg)_ also confirms he hasn’t left ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/239 "2011-02-22T19:52:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Frankly, I don’t know why everyone’s getting so worked up about this - . Me neither. That said, I’m not sure what point Iran is trying to make, either. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/240 "2011-02-22T20:24:54Z")
The big deal is that this is the first Iranian warship allowed to transit the Suez since 1979…which means that Egypt, who controls the canal, has had a sea change in how they regard Iran. The previous regime would never have allowed an Iranian warship through. Is it something to get worked up over? Not sure. Something to be concerned with though. As for what point Iran is trying to make, I’d say it’s trying to demonstrate that it can project force outside it’s own shores, that Egypt has changed it’s stance wrt Iranian warships, and that it is a regional power with interests even in the Med. How that will all play out with the other nations in the region I have no idea (as cited earlier, the Israelis aren’t too keen, but that’s to be expected). On the one hand it sort of ratchets up Iran’s image with those other powers. On the other hand though, they are having protests of their own back home, and had to put down a similar protest and near rebellion (hard) last year, so they aren’t fooling anyone on that score. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=13)