# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/241 "2011-02-22T20:39:19Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > The big deal is that this is the first Iranian warship allowed to transit the Suez since 1979…which means that Egypt, who controls the canal,\*\* has had a sea change in how they regard Iran\*\*. The previous regime would never have allowed an Iranian warship through. Is it something to get worked up over? Not sure. Something to be concerned with though > -XT Or perhaps the military regime, annoyed with US pressure at the end, wants to send a wee little message that they can, if they so desire, play another game, but in fact hasn’t changed much at all. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/242 "2011-02-22T20:46:07Z")
Yusuf Al Qaradawi of the Muslim Brotherhood just issued a fatwah calling for Qaddafi’s assassination. [http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110221/wl\_mideast\_afp/libyapoliticsunrestfatwa\_20110221212046](http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110221/wl_mideast_afp/libyapoliticsunrestfatwa_20110221212046) ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/243 "2011-02-22T20:51:26Z")
I read someone saying it’s not a fatwa, that he only made a personal statement, not a religious pronouncement. Can someone clarify what that means, is it true? ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/244 "2011-02-22T20:53:41Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > The big deal is that this is the first Iranian warship allowed to transit the Suez since 1979…which means that Egypt, who controls the canal, has had a sea change in how they regard Iran. The previous regime would never have allowed an Iranian warship through. I thought that the Egyptians were bound by international treaties requiring them to allow passage through the Suez canal to ships of any nationality, military or civilian. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/245 "2011-02-22T21:03:03Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > I read someone saying it’s not a fatwa, that he only made a personal statement, not a religious pronouncement. Can someone clarify what that means, is it true? It isn’t like the Pope speaking _ex cathedra_; a fatwa is basically an informed opinion. It doesn’t sound like he carefully cited sources, hadith, etc, but if he was speaking to Al Jazeera he also wasn’t just saying something off-the-cuff. (And this is a very big deal - Qaradawi is probably the most influential Muslim televangelist in the Arab world.) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/246 "2011-02-22T21:04:36Z")
[QUOTE=wmfellows] Or perhaps the military regime, annoyed with US pressure at the end, wants to send a wee little message that they can, if they so desire, play another game, but in fact hasn’t changed much at all. [/QUOTE] That’s a good point and one I hadn’t considered. Yeah…it could be just a way of slapping the US for turning on the previous regime. I’m sure that pissed a lot of folks in the Egyptian military off. [QUOTE=Shmendrik] I thought that the Egyptians were bound by international treaties requiring them to allow passage through the Suez canal to ships of any nationality, military or civilian. [/QUOTE] AFAIK, no Iranian warship had been allowed to transit the Suez since 1979. Perhaps they just never tried, but the article I was reading seemed to indicate that they wouldn’t have been allowed to, so there must be some latitude in those treaties. -XT ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/247 "2011-02-22T21:17:33Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > I thought that the Egyptians were bound by international treaties requiring them to allow passage through the Suez canal to ships of any nationality, military or civilian. The cwnal is open to all by treaty. Mubsrak denied irsnisn warship psssage anyway, presumably in support of eestern policy. So now tney are back in compliance. I expect they hsve more important things to worry about anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/248 "2011-02-22T21:18:51Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > (And this is a very big deal - Qaradawi is probably the most influential Muslim televangelist in the Arab world.) Well, it _would_ be a big deal if he wasn’t talking about a guy who apparently has a lower popularity rating among his own people than Sauron in Mordor. As it is, calling for Gaddafi’s assassination is like running up to the head of the parade and pretending to lead. The people of Libya don’t need to be _told_ to kill him. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/249 "2011-02-22T21:20:38Z")
Yeah, the hard part will simply be for them to get their collective hands on him. ETA: Although, this might encourage someone in his body guard or military around him to take the correct steps to ‘fix’ the problem. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/250 "2011-02-22T21:20:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Well, it _would_ be a big deal if he wasn’t talking about a guy who apparently has a lower popularity rating among his own people than Sauron in Mordor. As it is, calling for Gaddafi’s assassination is like running up to the head of the parade and pretending to lead. The people of Libya don’t need to be _told_ to kill him. But if one of his personal bodyguards is thinking of putting one in Gaddafi’s head, but feeling conflicted . . . maybe this _fatwah_ could flip him over. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/251 "2011-02-22T21:32:24Z")
Hmmm, true. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/252 "2011-02-22T21:40:52Z")
Better save a bullet for his sons. I think he has 8 of them. Any Swiss bank accounts to grab? He has funneled the oil money into his pockets like an American banker. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/253 "2011-02-22T21:45:09Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Better save a bullet for his sons. I think he has 8 of them. > Any Swiss bank accounts to grab? He has funneled the oil money into his pockets like an American banker. If I were Libyan I’d be saying, let him keep his billions, so long as he goes! (The country’s real wealth is in its oil reserves, and Gaddafi can’t take those with him.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/254 "2011-02-22T21:52:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I guess it’s about time to start asking: What future would the Libyan people choose, if they could? E.g., how strong is Islamism there? Partial answer after some googling: Apparently there is no significant al-Qaeda presence in Libya (despite [Gaddafi’s lies-or-delusions to the contrary](http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE71L1IM20110222)). There is a sort of affiliate called the [Libyan Islamic Fighting Group,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Islamic_Fighting_Group) which has actually split with al-Q over the latter’s commitment to violent anti-Western jihad (LIFG being interested mainly in jihad against Gaddafi), and in any case nobody seems to have heard much out of the LIFG for a long time, not even in connection with the ongoing rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/255 "2011-02-22T22:22:13Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > NATO couldn’t take action as far as I know, since it’s a defensive treaty. Individual European countries could, of course, intervene. France and the UK would probably be the best able to provide some sort of interdiction assistance. I doubt they would act without UN authorization either, though. > > -XT Not to hijack the thread, but how did NATO get involved in Kosovo? I realize it was only a decade ago, but I was concerned with other things in high school. Would any arguments used in 1999 work in Libya right now? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/256 "2011-02-22T22:29:50Z")
I think the argument was that Kosovo constituted an internal European matter that triggered an emergency response, constituting a threat to NATO members (if the conflict spilled out of the region). That’s what brought the US into it IIRC. Grain of salt though, since I’m just guessing as the the rationale used. I don’t believe that the same rationale could be used with Libya, however. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/257 "2011-02-22T22:54:17Z")
[Wiki sez:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NATO_bombing_of_the_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia) > [@](#): > > The official reason for the bombing of Yugoslavia was Operation Horseshoe. Subsequent investigations and successful prosecutions of criminals by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia confirmed that the Yugoslav security forces were responsible for crimes against humanity and massive human rights abuse against the Kosovar civilian population, especially during the NATO bombing campaign.[24] A precedent that really can’t be used here – at this point, nobody really knows what crimes against humanity are going on in Libya. It would weaken the meaning of “crimes against humanity” to apply it to something as ordinary as a regime shooting down its open opponents in the streets, armed or unarmed. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/258 "2011-02-22T23:00:15Z")
? No, NATO can undertake out of region actions, as in Afghanistan. I know American forget there are British, Dutch, French, German, etc. troops there, but they are, and it is a NATO command. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/259 "2011-02-22T23:02:54Z")
I believe that the justification for NATO in Afghanistan would be an attack on a member nation, no? I think you are being overly sensitive here wmfellows…no one has forgotten European contributions in Afghanistan. ETA: Out of curiosity, what would their justification be in attacking Libya? That’s pretty much what this was all about after all. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/260 "2011-02-22T23:14:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The country’s real wealth is in its oil reserves, and Gaddafi can’t take those with him. [Let’s hope not](http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2052961,00.html). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=14)