# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/261 "2011-02-22T23:23:30Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I believe that the justification for NATO in Afghanistan would be an attack on a member nation, no? I think you are being overly sensitive here wmfellows…no one has forgotten European contributions in Afghanistan. > > ETA: Out of curiosity, what would their justification be in attacking Libya? That’s pretty much what this was all about after all. > > -XT Afghanistan did not attack the US, nor did the Taleban. Mediterranean has always been in the NATO security zone for the obvious strategic reasons. Lack of security and some kind of UN resolution cover. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/262 "2011-02-22T23:41:09Z")
[QUOTE=wmfellows] Afghanistan did not attack the US, nor did the Taleban. [/QUOTE] No, the Taliban didn’t attack the US. But AQ certainly did, and they were based out of Afghanistan and had officials in the Taliban government. > [@](#): > > Mediterranean has always been in the NATO security zone for the obvious strategic reasons. Lack of security and some kind of UN resolution cover. Fair enough. As with the US, I don’t see the EU (or NATO) authorizing military action in Libya without a UN resolution. And imposing a no fly zone would be a direct military action. -XT ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/263 "2011-02-22T23:54:07Z")
I’m not arguing for the idea, I think it’s daft to have NATO involvement. However, justification would be fairly easy given Italian and Maltese proximity and shipping lanes, etc. As for the NATO involvement, rather post-dates. I don’t believe the justification is an article 5. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/264 "2011-02-22T23:57:53Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > No, the Taliban didn’t attack the US. But AQ certainly did, and they were based out of Afghanistan and had officials in the Taliban government. > > Fair enough. As with the US, I don’t see the EU (or NATO) authorizing military action in Libya without a UN resolution. And imposing a no fly zone would be a direct military action. > > -XT So far the UN is just issuing [sternly-worded warnings](http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=37583&Cr=protests&Cr1=). Next, I think they will them him to go to his room and take a time out. I do hope to see something more substantial soon if the violence continues to escalate. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/265 "2011-02-23T00:09:31Z")
The UN is not a cop and this is not a pub brawl. And intervening in civil wars is generally a terrible proposition, as the case of Somalia illustrates. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/266 "2011-02-23T00:14:58Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > The UN is not a cop and this is not a pub brawl. And intervening in civil wars is generally a terrible proposition, as the case of Somalia illustrates. Generally it is, but sometimes it is necessary like Rwanda or Bosnia to stop greater atrocities. I think authorizing a no-fly zone could do that, and hopefully prevent them from occurring instead of coming in to clean up the mess like the above areas. In other news, [Al-Jazeera](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/02/2011222152359147622.html) is reporting that a Libyan naval ship has been spotted off the coast of Malta. I hope they are defecting. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/267 "2011-02-23T00:35:58Z")
There is hardly enough information to make such judgements, and since the regime itself seems to be splintering, I don’t think playing into his propaganda about Western colonial rule makes any sense. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/268 "2011-02-23T00:58:51Z")
Well the only group I have heard call for a no-fly zone is the diplomatic corp that defected yesterday. You really think the Libyan people are still falling for his propaganda? Especially after today’s speech? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/269 "2011-02-23T01:05:20Z")
> [@Agnostic\_Pagan](#): > > Well the only group I have heard call for a no-fly zone is the diplomatic corp that defected yesterday. You really think the Libyan people are still falling for his propaganda? Especially after today’s speech? Let’s just say we can’t predict how the protesters would react to the approach of American or NATO ships or planes, even if purportedly there to intervene on their side. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/270 "2011-02-23T01:51:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Let’s just say we can’t predict how the protesters would react to the approach of American or NATO ships or planes, even if purportedly there to intervene on their side. Quite probably much the same way Americans would react if Al Qaeda sent search and rescue teams to New Orleans after Katrina. A lot of Americans are so firmly convinced we are the “good guys” that they can’t make themselves understand that the rest of the world doesn’t always see us that way. We’ve burned through all our moral and political capital in the Middle East, no one is going to believe that we are well meaning even if we are. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/271 "2011-02-23T02:21:57Z")
Egypt has a pretty good air force. Just sayin. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/272 "2011-02-23T03:15:40Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Egypt has a pretty good air force. Just sayin. They do have a good air force. For the area. The last time few times Libyan Air Forces attempted to engage US fighters it [went](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Sidra_incident_(1981)) [badly.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Sidra_incident_(1989)) But I will state again that I think we should stay out of this. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/273 "2011-02-23T03:16:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > They’d have to get there first. There’s this Wall, you see. You mean like the one they had in Berlin or is it more like the ones they had around the Jewish ghettos in Nazi Europe? If everyone marched towards those walls peacefully, will the IDF really mow them down? Of course not. Civil disobedience has a much better chance working in a place like Israel than a place like Libya or North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/274 "2011-02-23T03:20:34Z")
> [@Agnostic\_Pagan](#): > > And no, Qaddafi is definitely not progressive, but he claims to be socialist. I really wish he wouldn’t though. So what, Teabaggers claim to be REAL Americans. I can call myself a unicorn, doesn’t make it true. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/275 "2011-02-23T03:21:57Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > With what goal - that Israel withdraw from the West Bank? But then Israel will have to deal with protests by the settlers, and while there may be more Palestinians, the settlers have a lot more guns. So are you saying the settlers will to shoot unarmed protesters or that they will try to violently overthrow their government? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/276 "2011-02-23T03:22:43Z")
Reports on the BBC or Public Radio International I heard, mentioned how the unpredictability of Gadaffy was/is a strength for him. That would work only if his cabinet was predictable in following him. > **[Kadafi vows no mercy as chaos grows](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2011-feb-23-la-fg-libya-mideast-protests-20110223-story.html)** > > Kadafi vows no mercy as chaos grows > [@](#): > > But Kadafi’s tough 75-minute nationwide speech on Tuesday may not save a regime that after four decades in power seemed to be quickly disintegrating. With violence flaring in city after city, and key defections from his inner circle, he appeared out of touch and increasingly out of control. > > In the speech, Kadafi praised one of his closest and most powerful aides, Interior Secretary and army Gen. Abdul Fatah Younis. Several hours later, however, Younis made clear in his own televised statement that he had joined the opposition, urging “all the armed forces to be at the service of the people … to help them achieve victory.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/277 "2011-02-23T03:30:04Z")
I think we need an additional Evil Overlord Rule just for Moammar: “If I ever reach a point where the rebellion cannot be defeated, and I am faced with a choice between (1) running away in shame to wherever I have my secret bank accounts, or (2) making a glorious last stand and taking as many of my disloyal subjects with me as I can, after going on national television to announce my intention to do so – what am I, an idiot? Of course I’ll take the bolt-hole.” ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/278 "2011-02-23T03:31:21Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > But I will state again that I think we should stay out of this. I think **Tom Scud** was saying that perhaps _Egypt_ shouldn’t stay out of it, as their neighbors are massacred. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/279 "2011-02-23T03:35:06Z")
I’d say Egypt has it’s hands full with it’s own problems. It doesn’t need to go borrowing trouble at this point. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/280 "2011-02-23T03:36:00Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Afghanistan did not attack the US, nor did the Taleban. The Taliban provided al Qaeda with a staging ground and then when asked to turn over OBL, told us to go pound sand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=15)