# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/361 "2011-02-24T16:11:19Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > He also pointed out in his latest speech that the UK’s Queen Elizabeth II has ruled longer than he has, and yet has not been overthrown… I didn’t see that part. And his argument is irrelevant too, as the UK has a limited monarchy (as I noted in the Prince Charles thread). So _de facto_ Parliament rules in the name of the Crown. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/362 "2011-02-24T16:12:58Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > He also pointed out in his latest speech that the UK’s Queen Elizabeth II has ruled longer than he has, and yet has not been overthrown… Well I’m sold. We just have to make sure that we get her son when she gets overthrown. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/363 "2011-02-24T16:14:01Z")
The emergence of several privately owned media outlets is reflecting a new reality in eastern Libya, reports BBC Monitoring. The media scene in the eastern cities is starting to change rapidly amid new freedom from Col Gaddafi’s control. There have been reports of two medium-wave radio stations broadcasting from eastern Libya and a Benghazi-based newspaper. Citizen journalism pages on Facebook are also recruiting reporters in Benghazi and other cities. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/364 "2011-02-24T16:24:17Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > My guess is that after the chaos has died down, after the dust has settled, after the bodies have been buried, the dead mourned and the rubble cleared, the people will start to form their own, new political parties, and Libyans will democratically elect a new leadership. > > It’ll take a long time for the country to get close to anything resembling normality, but you’ll see free press spring up there overnight, and the people will never again accept corruption in their midst. They want freedom and democracy, and after that butcher is gone and the money actually flows to the people instead of to his pockets and those of his cronies, the country will be utterly changed for the better. I’m afraid that the historical track record of these kinds of situations make this an optimistic scenario. I hope that it happens, but bad men with Guns and oil money have lots of ways of making things go wrong. And corruption… Eh, I have heard that a million times in Africa - we’re against corruptoin. Usually means “against the other guy’s corruptoin, but ours is just in the family” Unless Libya has strong civil society and very strong norms, I’m afraid that this is going to be vastly harder than merely removing the lunatic. > [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > In the latest nuttery, [CNN is reporting that Gadhafi is blaming al-Qaeda and drugs for the violence.](http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/24/libya.protests/index.html?hpt=T1) > > Seriously, WTF? Yesterday it was the USA, today it’s Arabian terrorists? Yesterday it was foreign intelligence operatives, today it’s drugs? > > That guy needs to be involuntarily committed. I thought I saw something right from early on about Drugs. I think it might be channelling his own inner demons, given his … odd behaviour. > [@Bibliovore](#): > > He also pointed out in his latest speech that the UK’s Queen Elizabeth II has ruled longer than he has, and yet has not been overthrown… That’s downright strange. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/365 "2011-02-24T16:26:43Z")
He said "Al-Qaida militants are exploiting teenagers, giving them hallucinogenic pills in their coffee with milk, like Nescafe, " Drugs in their milk. Hmmm. I guess that’s one theory. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/366 "2011-02-24T16:38:05Z")
It turns out that Gadhafi might have gotten one small point correct. CNN sez [aQIM (an aQ ally) is siding with the uprising](http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/24/libya.qaeda.statement/index.html?hpt=T2). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/367 "2011-02-24T16:50:35Z")
Jumping on the bandwagon, rather. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/368 "2011-02-24T16:51:07Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > Drugs in their milk. Hmmm. I guess that’s one theory. What’s it going to be then, eh? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/369 "2011-02-24T17:23:32Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > He said "Al-Qaida militants are exploiting teenagers, giving them hallucinogenic pills in their coffee with milk, like Nescafe, " > > Drugs in their milk. Hmmm. I guess that’s one theory. I wonder if al-Q even knows much about any drugs that are not grown in Afghanistan . . . ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/370 "2011-02-24T17:54:00Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > It would be obviously easiest to cross the Egyptian border as that area is in anti-government hands, but it seems to me that the people on the West, in Tripoli are the ones that are in more desperate need of aid. AFAIK, the western border is closed. I’m unaware of any NGO present in Libya apart from representatives of the red crescent (the best way to help, frankly, would be to fund NGOs active on the ground, if there were any. I don’t think a random group of people can do anything better than handing money to the professionals). That said, some people have individually crossed the border from Egypt. Apparently, for instance, 4 American doctors are currently working in Benghazi’s hospitals. But **Alessan** might be right : weapons and ammunitions might be the most helpful thing at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/371 "2011-02-24T20:00:30Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > He also pointed out in his latest speech that the UK’s Queen Elizabeth II has ruled longer than he has, and yet has not been overthrown… Yes, but she has much better fashion sense. Even her hats, on average, are better than anything he has worn. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/372 "2011-02-24T20:20:24Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Yes, but she has much better fashion sense. > Even her hats, on average, are better than anything he has worn. I dunno, the capes are pretty cool. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/373 "2011-02-24T20:24:24Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I dunno, the capes are pretty cool. And what, good **carnivorousplant** , have you been told about capes, hmm? Seems to me that saying “Look! look! The British monarch hasn’t fallen, revolt against her FIRST!” is kindergarten-playground level screaming. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/374 "2011-02-24T20:34:37Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > And what, good **carnivorousplant** , have you been told about capes, hmm? > > Seems to me that saying “Look! look! The British monarch hasn’t fallen, revolt against her FIRST!” is kindergarten-playground level screaming. We were digressing upon fashion sense, not political awareness. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/375 "2011-02-24T21:15:33Z")
[Just today so far:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Libyan_protests#24_February) > [@](#): > > **24 February** > > Protesters assumed complete control of Tobruk, where soldiers and residents celebrated by waving the former Libyan flag used between 1951 and 1969, firing guns into the air, honking horns, and chanting “the people demand the fall of the Colonel”.[citation needed] Army units in Tobruk and throughout eastern Libya sided with protesters, with some soldiers and officers participating in demonstrations. Commanders pledged to defend the “liberated territory” with their lives after Gaddafi threatened to take it back by force. Two airmen bailed out of their jet, which crashed into the desert, after defying orders to bomb Tobruk. In the collapse of central authority, residents formed public defence committees for security, and opened welfare organizations to ensure that residents had enough to eat. At newly established security checkpoints, demonstrators handed out bottled water and juice to passing motorists.[147] > > **Cities and towns close to Tripoli were reported to be falling to protesters, while in Tripoli itself, pro-Gaddafi militia patrolled the streets to prevent demonstrations.[147] In the east, civilian protesters and military units that had defected and reorganized armed themselves to prepare for an upcoming “Battle of Tripoli”. Meanwhile Gaddafi prepared for the defense of the city by gathering pro-government forces in the capital and deploying tanks in the suburbs.[148]** > > The North African wing of al-Qaeda announced that they would support the Libyan uprising.[149] In a televised phone call to the people of Az Zawiyah, where fighting was taking place, Gaddafi claimed the revolts could be blamed on bin Laden, and that young Libyans had been duped with drugs and alcohol.[150] Gaddafi dispatched an envoy to Zawiyah, who warned protesters of a “massacre” if they didn’t leave.[151] > > Pro-Gaddafi Libyan forces and foreign mercenaries opened fire on a mosque in Zawiya, where residents, some armed with hunting rifles, had been holding a sit-in to support the protesters in Tripoli. The troops blasted the mosque’s minaret with an anti-aircraft gun, killing 10 people and wounding 150. Thousands of people then gathered in Zawiyah’s main square to demonstrate against Gaddafi. Hours after the attack, Gaddafi gave a speech on state television, where he expressed condolences for the deaths, but scolded the city’s residents for siding with the uprising, saying “shame on you, people of Zawiyah, control your children”, and that “they are loyal to Bin Laden. What do you have to do with Bin Laden, people of Zawiyah? They are exploiting young people… I insist it is Bin Laden”. He also blamed teenagers on halluciogenic pills given to them “in their coffee with milk, like Nescafe”.[151] > > Pro-Gaddafi militia and foreign mercenaries also attacked an airport outside Misrata, which was defended by protesters armed with rifles. During the fighting, the militia bombarded the protesters with rocket-proppelled grenades and mortars, while the protesters managed to seize an anti-aircraft gun and turn it against the militia. At the same time, officers from an air force school near the airport mutinied, and with the help of local residents, overran an adjacent airbase where Gaddafi loyalists were holed up, and disabled fighter jets to prevent their use against protesters. Five people were killed during the fighting: four protesters and one pro-Gaddafi militiaman, and another forty wounded.[151] > > In Tripoli, militia and foreign mercenaries continued patrolling the streets, firing guns into the air, while neighborhood watch groups barricaded side streets to try to keep the fighters out. Security forces also raided numerous homes around the city and arrested suspected political opponents. Armed militiamen entered a hospital to search for government opponents among the wounded.[151] > > Ahmed Ghadaf al-Dam, a cousin and one of Gaddafi’s closest aides, defected to Egypt, protesting what he called "grave violations of human rights and human and international laws.[151] > > The European Union called for Libya to be suspended from the United Nations Human Rights Council, and for the United Nations Security Council to approve a probe to investigate “gross and systematic violations of human rights by the Libyan authorities”, while Switzerland froze all of Gaddafi’s assets in the country.[151] “Battle of Tripoli” . . . urban combat . . . that could get really bloody. Especially if things get so chaotic that the Gaddafi units keep fighting and fighting because there is no one to surrender on their behalf, or tell them it’s over. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/376 "2011-02-24T21:40:19Z")
[Rumors swirl that Qaddafi has been shot.](http://blogs.forbes.com/afontevecchia/2011/02/24/amidst-rumors-that-gaddafis-been-shot-swiss-freeze-his-assets/) The State Department says there is no reason to believe the rumors but one can hope. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/377 "2011-02-24T21:55:21Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > [Rumors swirl that Qaddafi has been shot.](http://blogs.forbes.com/afontevecchia/2011/02/24/amidst-rumors-that-gaddafis-been-shot-swiss-freeze-his-assets/) The State Department says there is no reason to believe the rumors but one can hope. What do mercenaries do when somebody shoots the paymaster? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/378 "2011-02-24T22:16:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What do mercenaries do when somebody shoots the paymaster? [I know, I know,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_%28Xenophon%29) but what do they do nowadays? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/379 "2011-02-24T22:20:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What do mercenaries do when somebody shoots the paymaster? Go look for another job. See [Xenophon.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_%28Xenophon%29) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/380 "2011-02-24T22:22:33Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > AFAIK, the western border is closed. According to this CNN-guy’s [Twitter](http://twitter.com/bencnn) pro-rebel bedouin convinced the Egyptian military to let in some doctors a few days ago. [QUOTE=bencnn] # Egyptian doctors with medical supplies had been waiting hours to cross into #Libya. Egyptians very sympathetic to Libyan plight. #Egypt 6:17 PM Feb 21st via web # On Egyptian side of border, saw anti-Qaddafi Bedouin convince Egyptian army to allow Egyptian medical aid into #Libya. [/QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=20)