# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/21 "2011-02-16T22:52:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Gaddafi, like Iranian leaders, promoted the idea of protest in other countries. You’d think they would learn to keep their mouths shut. Or to be immune to embarrassment, which is probably the case. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/22 "2011-02-16T22:57:04Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > As long as you aren’t the one being beaten to death for trying to maintain what few rights females had been granted under the old boss. _cough_[Afghanistan](http://www.law-lib.utoronto.ca/diana/afghanwomen.htm)_cough_ The democratically elected governments of Afghanistan have been rather better than the non-democratic ones in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/23 "2011-02-16T23:55:34Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I don’t want to side track too much, but I’d say that elections, in and of themselves don’t make the situation ‘better’. It’s really about the quality of life, whether under a dictator, king, theocracy or elected or quasi-elected officials. From what I’ve read, the quality of life hasn’t substantially increased for the average Iranian from the time of the Shah to today. There is a reason that there is so much unrest in Iran today, and a reason that those in power are using similar iron fisted methods to keep that protest element in check. > > I suppose if you are a fundamentalist Islamic type (or in the theocracy or the ruling classes) then Iran today is ‘better’ than it was under the Shah. Obviously if you were one of the Shah’s supporters things would be ‘worse’ (mostly because being dead tends to suck). For those not in either group I’d say it’s a toss up as to whether it was better before under the Shah or today under an Islamic theocracy with a few trappings of democracy (and even then, what limited election choices one has being circumvented as in the last election). > > Anyway, I don’t think anyone is really surprised with protests in Libya. > > -XT Am sorry but this is simply not true, I have no love for the Iranian regime, but it is a marked improvement compared to the SAVAK fanatical regime that was there at the time of the Shah. At least even in its very small form there is some shape of an elected parliament and a quasi independent media. **None** of this was around at the time of the Shah. Plus the distribution of wealth in Shah era Iran was alot more unequal compared to the **basic** efforts of some people in the present government to try and alleviate poverty (remember, that’s their main electoral base) ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/24 "2011-02-17T00:03:22Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Anyway, I don’t think anyone is really surprised with protests in Libya. > > -XT I am. I thought Lybia was too iron fisted for a significant number of people to dare protesting. But then again, I’m surprised at every turn of these events. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/25 "2011-02-17T00:05:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Gaddafi, like Iranian leaders, promoted the idea of protest in other countries. You’d think they would learn to keep their mouths shut. I distinctly remember him stating his support for Ben Ali’s regime during the revolution in Tunisia. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/26 "2011-02-17T00:23:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The democratically elected governments of Afghanistan have been rather better than the non-democratic ones in that regard. Actually, I think the [Communist government of Afghanistan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saur_Revolution) (never elected, but not initially installed by Soviet troops or proxies, either – it was a home-grown revolution, like Cuba’s) was rather good with regard to women’s rights. Or, shall we say, women’s equality. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/27 "2011-02-17T00:24:28Z")
I was counting that as an elected one. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/28 "2011-02-17T01:23:53Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Am sorry but this is simply not true, I have no love for the Iranian regime, but it is a marked improvement compared to the SAVAK fanatical regime that was there at the time of the Shah. At least even in its very small form there is some shape of an elected parliament and a quasi independent media. None of this was around at the time of the Shah. Plus the distribution of wealth in Shah era Iran was alot more unequal compared to the basic efforts of some people in the present government to try and alleviate poverty (remember, that’s their main electoral base) [/QUOTE] Ok…convince me. From what I’ve read in the past, the SAVAK was simply incorporated into the new secret police organizations, and they are as effective under the new regime as they were under the Shah. Things like the rights of women which had been progressing under the Shah have been thrown back to a more fundamentalist mindset. Same with many other laws and rights. Torture seems to be something that both regimes indulge in as well. As for representation, that’s probably true, but seems to be fairly meaningless to the common people. There seems to be as much (or more) anger today as there was during the later days of the Shah, which seems to be an indication that the rather limited ability of the average Iranian to have input into their government isn’t making a large difference to the public’s perception of ‘better’. As for the media, Iran has a national firewall which limits access to outside information to all but a select few, and from what little I know it’s more ‘quasi’ than ‘independent’ wrt the news available to the common citizen. As for wealth redistribution, I have no idea. Are there metrics showing whether the average Iranian is better off today from both a salary and purchasing ability perspective? The Iranian government hasn’t exactly played nice with the rest of the world, and has been under a series of embargoes, which tends to make me think that a lot of things are unavailable, but I really have no idea. I’d be interested in hearing about it, since I haven’t really kept current with how good or bad things are in Iran today. On cursory inspection, I’d say they aren’t very good, based on the protests of the last year (and how they were put down) from the threads and blogs I’ve skimmed, and that the feeling that the common citizen is connected to his or her government and can effect change is pretty bad. Perhaps better than under the Shah, but that’s a pretty low bar. Possibly this isn’t the best thread to get into this, as the thread is more about Libya, but if you feel like getting into it I’d be interested in hearing how Iran is better today for the average Iranian than it was under the Shah. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/29 "2011-02-17T03:05:27Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I thought it was ‘Tippy Canoe and Tyler too!’. (and I know it’s actually ‘Tippecanoe’, but it sounds better the other way) Doesn’t quite work . . . Try something with a tattooed lady. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/30 "2011-02-17T14:51:01Z")
Airman Doors: > [@](#): > > Whatever, the middle East will be a very different place in the years to come. Who would have thought it was possible? George W. Bush and similar neocons, though it didn’t necessarily happen quite the way they might have expected. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/31 "2011-02-17T16:39:40Z")
[Unconfirmed reports of 16 deaths so far.](http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/17/libya.protests/) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/32 "2011-02-17T16:43:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The democratically elected governments of Afghanistan have been rather better than the non-democratic ones in that regard. Really? And what democratically elected (as opposed to ‘elected’ by massive electoral fraud) might those be? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/33 "2011-02-17T16:52:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [Gaddafi](http://af.reuters.com/article/tunisiaNews/idAFLDE71C0KP20110213)wants Palestinians to mass on Israel to capitalize on the popular revolts in the region. Which has fuck all to do with the Revolutions, he’s calling for Palestinians to take a run at Israel. He’s been calling for that stuff for years I think. Anyway it’s neither domestic revolt nor internal to the Arabs. > [@clairobscur](#): > > I distinctly remember him stating his support for Ben Ali’s regime during the revolution in Tunisia. Me too. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/34 "2011-02-17T17:51:16Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Really? And what democratically elected (as opposed to ‘elected’ by massive electoral fraud) might those be? Look, America has a long history – all in the past now, I hope – of flagrantly corrupt machine politics, including electoral fraud, with ballot-box stuffing and votes for the dead. Perhaps it’s a stage in democratic development that can’t be avoided. But, within limits, even a government elected that way is in some degree representative of the public will – more so, at any rate, than a government of monarchs or mullahs or generals. Boss Tweed knew very well he had to keep the people of New York happy and actually get some things done for them. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/35 "2011-02-17T19:53:25Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Which has fuck all to do with the Revolutions, he’s calling for Palestinians to take a run at Israel. He’s been calling for that stuff for years I think. Anyway it’s neither domestic revolt nor internal to the Arabs. It has everything to do with what I said. Gadaffi promoted mass protests by Palestinians. He’s now eating those words because his autocratic rule is threatened by demonstrations. Gander meets Goose. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/36 "2011-02-17T21:13:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It has everything to do with what I said. Gadaffi promoted mass protests by Palestinians. He’s now eating those words because his autocratic rule is threatened by demonstrations. Gander meets Goose. Who says he’s “eating his words”? Nobody can hold him to any standard of intellectual consistency, and in any case there is no **in** consistency here. He said there should be protests in Palestine, there’s no reason to doubt he meant it, and he implied nothing at all about protests in Libya. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/37 "2011-02-17T21:19:38Z")
I mean, “Freedom for Palestine!” is just old-hat rhetoric for Qaddafi. Did he ever even **pretend** to care about democratic government as such? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/38 "2011-02-17T21:27:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I mean, “Freedom for Palestine!” is just old-hat rhetoric for Qaddafi. Did he ever even **pretend** to care about democratic government as such? No, and therin is the consumption of his words. Do what I suggest in other countries but tow the line in my autocracy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/39 "2011-02-17T21:28:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, and therin is the consumption of his words. Do what I suggest in other countries but tow the line in my autocracy. That is not admirable, but neither is it inconsistent. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/40 "2011-02-18T15:26:08Z")
[At least 24 dead in protests so far,](http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2011/0218/Day-of-Rage-brings-Libya-protest-deaths-to-at-least-24-says-human-rights-group) following yesterday’s “Day of Rage.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=3)