# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/461 "2011-03-02T04:42:09Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > If you send them some box tops as well they will get the magical decoder ring…which always seems helpful. > > -XT And the secret message will say: “Drink more Ovaltine.” ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/462 "2011-03-02T06:47:56Z")
[Libyan rebel army prepares for war](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/20113242554921501.html) "Opposition fighters in Libya, who have withstood several large-scale attacks by government forces, are preparing to march on the capital, Tripoli. At locations across the eastern city ofBenghazi, civilians are gathering for boot camp, learning how to move as a battalion and fire weapons, in preparation to the march. The leaders of these ragtag units springing up across eastern Libya say they already have 5,000 volunteers." I vote we call it the Love Brigade - the people are just gathering to show Gaddafi how much love they have for him. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/463 "2011-03-02T07:01:27Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Send the rebels 200 bazookas with armor-piercing shells. Actually, send em some javelin anti armor missiles. Will shred any armor lighter than a leopard. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/464 "2011-03-02T07:06:43Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Actually, send em some javelin anti armor missiles. Will shred any armor lighter than a leopard. > > Declan “Cupid’s Arrows” ---
**Author:** ![enigmatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@enigmatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigmatic)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/465 "2011-03-02T11:14:36Z")
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d assume that if the easy answer to enemy armor was issuing your infantry 1 anti tank missile for each vehicle we’d see a lot less modern armies with cavalry. I was always under the impression that real life tanks are much more lethal than the ones you find in video games, even if they are cold war relics. Any military dopers want to comment? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/466 "2011-03-02T12:05:44Z")
> [@enigmatic](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d assume that if the easy answer to enemy armor was issuing your infantry 1 anti tank missile for each vehicle we’d see a lot less modern armies with cavalry. > > I was always under the impression that real life tanks are much more lethal than the ones you find in video games, even if they are cold war relics. > > Any military dopers want to comment? Not military but a tank, especially with air cover and in open desert is going to make a hell of a mess out of a helluva lot of troops before they get in range. And who is going to train them anyway? Besides the last thing we need to do is effectively hand anti-tank missiles to terrorist groups as some will inevitably find their way into the black market. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/467 "2011-03-02T19:39:51Z")
[http://www.peopleforum.cn/viewthread.php?tid=71632](http://www.peopleforum.cn/viewthread.php?tid=71632) You can buy whatever weapons you want if you have enough money. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/468 "2011-03-02T20:50:12Z")
[Gaddafi fails to re-take oil town of Brega, east of Tripoli.](http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/0302/Qaddafi-s-foray-east-fails-to-dampen-Libya-uprising) [Gaddafi threatens bloodbath if the West intervenes.](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8358013/Libya-Gaddafi-threatens-bloodbath-if-West-intervenes.html) ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/469 "2011-03-03T00:35:04Z")
[Gaddafi could hold out for months in his compound, says [veteran Libyan] general](http://www.smh.com.au/world/gaddafi-could-hold-out-for-months-in-his-compound-says-general-20110302-1bey7.html) And I didn’t realise he still held Sirte, which was presumably the base for the attempt at Brega. This is not over by a long shot. On the other hand if his troops can be ejected from a town by a couple of hundred amateurs with AK47s driving their own cars then they have little hope of winning the country back. I fear we’re in for a longish war. Does anyone have a good feel for how the momentum is running at the moment? I sure don’t. I expected him to consolidate Tripoli and then pick off other towns one at a time, the fact he’s a/ moving very slowly and b/ failed in a couple of these now tells me he’s much weaker than we might have thought. And/or he’s keeping the bulk of his forces in Tripoli our of fear for himself and his family. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/470 "2011-03-03T00:49:11Z")
The Libyans are going to give political scientists and theorists a fascinating demonstration of the formation of authority out of the State of Nature, as it were. Like the Tunisian and Egyptian revolutions, the Libyan is mass-based, nearly spontaneous, and essentially leaderless. Unlike them, it has arrived abruptly at a point where it cannot succeed without leadership. Also unlike them, it faces a situation where not only the head-of-state-and-cronies but the whole apparatus of national government, civil and military, is irredeemably discredited. And there was never any opposition in Libya sufficiently organized to have any kind of shadow government ready to offer in its place. Therefore, wherever Gaddafi’s power has been defeated, there is no government at all. Which means the rebels have to invent their own and fast, not only to beat Gaddafi but to keep society going in rebel-controlled areas. So they have – the [National Transitional Council,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Libyan_Council) which for the time being insists it is not a government but “the political face of the revolution,” and, more importantly, [ad hoc local governments:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Libyan_Council#Local_committees) > [@](#): > > In opposition-held Benghazi, a 15 member “local committee”[12] made up of lawyers, judges and respected local people has been formed in order to provide civic administration and public services within the city. [13] Residents have organised to direct traffic and collect refuse. Many shops and businesses have opened again.[14] A newspaper [15] and two local radio stations have also been established. > > Similar “local committees” are being formed in other cities controlled by opposition groups.[16] Obviously there has been no time for elections. Presumably these committees are staffed by any volunteers nobody finds objectionable. And yet others will follow them as a duly constituted authority, at least for the time being. It’s a very rare and interesting – and inspiring – phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/471 "2011-03-03T03:29:12Z")
> [@Agnostic\_Pagan](#): > > [Libyan rebel army prepares for war](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/20113242554921501.html) > > "Opposition fighters in Libya, who have withstood several large-scale attacks by government forces, are preparing to march on the capital, Tripoli. > > At locations across the eastern city ofBenghazi, civilians are gathering for boot camp, learning how to move as a battalion and fire weapons, in preparation to the march. > > The leaders of these ragtag units springing up across eastern Libya say they already have 5,000 volunteers." > > I vote we call it the Love Brigade - the people are just gathering to show Gaddafi how much love they have for him. “Join the Rebel Army and Get Hallucinatory Pills!” was a brilliant recruiting slogan! Some day soon, every single one of Gaddafi’s followers, except perhaps his sons, is going to be forced to silently admit that their side cannot win this, no way. When that happens, they face one of the ethical problems of a mercenary: Up to what point do you stick by the paymaster? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/472 "2011-03-03T07:49:06Z")
Would you believe [Hugo Chavez is offering to mediate?](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2011/03/2011316273322512.html) What’s more, [the Arab League is actually considering it.](http://www.worldbulletin.net/?aType=haber&ArticleID=70538) Chavez has been the one national leader to defend Gaddafi in all this, which might not be much to his credit, but it might make him the one foreigner living to whom Gaddafi will listen. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/473 "2011-03-03T09:42:36Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://www.peopleforum.cn/viewthread.php?tid=71632](http://www.peopleforum.cn/viewthread.php?tid=71632) You can buy whatever weapons you want if you have enough money. Then why aren’t Al-Q shooting air liners out the sky left, right and centre? ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/474 "2011-03-03T10:25:40Z")
I’ve never been more proud to be a Libyan - some of the stories of bravery we’ve heard have been truly, truly humbling. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/475 "2011-03-03T10:46:18Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Then why aren’t Al-Q shooting air liners out the sky left, right and centre? Perhaps they\* don’t have “enough money”? Or they aren’t particularly trying - they pretty much got what they wanted from America thanks to the 9-11 attacks after all, no need to do it again. Or they want to save military weapons for harder targets. - To what extent there IS a “they”; Al Qaeda is more a brand name than an organization. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/476 "2011-03-03T14:43:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > - To what extent there IS a “they”; Al Qaeda is more a brand name than an organization. Yeah, it’s a lot like “Anonymous”. There’s a core group of some sort, but anyone can call themselves Al Qaeda or Anonymous. There’s really no way to know if they’re a long-time member of the core group or if they just started calling themselves that this morning. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/477 "2011-03-03T15:16:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Would you believe [Hugo Chavez is offering to mediate?](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2011/03/2011316273322512.html) > > What’s more, [the Arab League is actually considering it.](http://www.worldbulletin.net/?aType=haber&ArticleID=70538) > > Chavez has been the one national leader to defend Gaddafi in all this, which might not be much to his credit, but it might make him the one foreigner living to whom Gaddafi will listen. Open message to Chavez: Learn to pick your battles. This is not the right one. Gaddafi does not support his people. He does not support socialism. Compare the damn lifestyle of his children with the average Libyan - does that even remotely resemble a fair distribution of wealth? Compare Libya to Norway - which country actually uses its oil wealth to help its citizens? The offer for a diplomatic solution is to be commended, but peaceful solutions are for those who embrace peace, not tyrants who only seek to escape when the brutality they imposed backfires. So Chavez, shut the hell up about Gaddafi and go back to building cooperatives. You have actually increased your country’s average standard of living over the last decade. Gaddafi has had over forty years to do so - he has not and never will. * * * Sadly, Chavez is not Gaddafi’s only supporter. Alexander Lukashenko is [reported](http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2056420,00.html) to have sent arms, and possibly troops/mercenaries as well, before the embargo was placed. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/478 "2011-03-03T15:33:22Z")
The Benghazi wing of the revolution has rejected mediation by Chavez. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/479 "2011-03-03T15:53:06Z")
> [@Agnostic\_Pagan](#): > > So Chavez, shut the hell up about Gaddafi and go back to building cooperatives. You have actually increased your country’s average standard of living over the last decade. Gaddafi has had over forty years to do so - he has not and never will. Every once in a while someone needs to say to Chavez, “¿Por qué no te callas?” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/480 "2011-03-03T15:56:36Z")
CNN had a reporter in the field that witnessed and filmed the planes bombing . They showed a bomb explosion and the hole it left. The rebels are outgunned badly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=25)