# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/41 "2011-02-18T15:37:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Look, America has a long history – all in the past now, I hope – of flagrantly corrupt machine politics, including electoral fraud, with ballot-box stuffing and votes for the dead. Perhaps it’s a stage in democratic development that can’t be avoided. But, within limits, even a government elected that way is in some degree representative of the public will – more so, at any rate, than a government of monarchs or mullahs or generals. Boss Tweed knew very well he had to keep the people of New York happy and actually get some things done for them. Maybe. But this is just another pseudo-democratic kleptocracy that doesn’t come close to Tweed, with draconian Islamic laws. They are currently gearing themselves up to execute a Christian (as soon as the international community takes their eye off the ball for one second) and take Women’s Refuges under ‘state’ control (complete with Police at the door) because the women inside are ‘prostitutes’. And the Central Bank is on the verge of collapse because Karzai and his relatives have looted it into insolvency. This does not even begin to approach a democracy so let’s not pretend. It is just another vile, torturing Islamic kleptocracy that’s quite happy to let the West shed its blood to keep their looting, drug-dealing snouts in the trough. It is no more on the road to democracy than Mubarak’s Egypt was. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/42 "2011-02-18T15:51:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It has everything to do with what I said. Gadaffi promoted mass protests by Palestinians. He’s now eating those words because his autocratic rule is threatened by demonstrations. Gander meets Goose. No, not by any rational, non-deluded analysis. He promoted a mass uprising against what he and the Palestinians view as a “foreign occupation” by an outside invader. Nor did he call for democracy. The only hair thread of a connection is "demonstrations’’ which would be like making some tortured connection between say your President calling for successful democratic protests and then going, Simpons like, ‘"Har har’’ if violent demonstrations broke out around his party congress. There’s no logical similarity or connection. It would only have a connection if say he called for Israeli Arabs to demonstrate against the Israeli state - _ **that** _ would be something logically connected and be "eating his own words’ > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Who says he’s “eating his words”? Nobody can hold him to any standard of intellectual consistency, and in any case there is no **in** consistency here. He said there should be protests in Palestine, there’s no reason to doubt he meant it, and he implied nothing at all about protests in Libya. Quite right. > [@Magiver](#): > > No, and therin is the consumption of his words. Do what I suggest in other countries but tow the line in my autocracy. HE said nothing about autocracy or domestic rule as far as I know. > [@tagos](#): > > This does not even begin to approach a democracy so let’s not pretend. It is just another vile, torturing Islamic kleptocracy that’s quite happy to let the West shed its blood to keep their looting, drug-dealing snouts in the trough. It is no more on the road to democracy than Mubarak’s Egypt was. While I agree with your evaluation of AFghanistan, I don’t see where “Islamic’” comes into it. It’'s yet another 3rd world tribal & clan based kleptocracy. Seems pretty clear to me from say my experiences with WEst African Muslims that there is nothing particularly Islamic in the specific nastiness of the Afghans. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/43 "2011-02-18T15:55:47Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Maybe. But this is just another pseudo-democratic kleptocracy that doesn’t come close to Tweed, with draconian Islamic laws. They are currently gearing themselves up to execute a Christian (as soon as the international community takes their eye off the ball for one second) and take Women’s Refuges under ‘state’ control (complete with Police at the door) because the women inside are ‘prostitutes’. > > And the Central Bank is on the verge of collapse because Karzai and his relatives have looted it into insolvency. > > This does not even begin to approach a democracy so let’s not pretend. It is just another vile, torturing Islamic kleptocracy that’s quite happy to let the West shed its blood to keep their looting, drug-dealing snouts in the trough. It is no more on the road to democracy than Mubarak’s Egypt was. Is it, or is it not, an improvement over the Taliban government? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/44 "2011-02-19T22:25:27Z")
In Benghazi, [both sides escalate violence.](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/02/in-libyan-protests-both-sides-escalate-violence/71484/) Gaddafi ain’t leaving nothing to chance – he is [importing mercenaries!](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2011/02/libya-protests-2.html) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/45 "2011-02-20T04:17:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In Benghazi, [both sides escalate violence.](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/02/in-libyan-protests-both-sides-escalate-violence/71484/) > > Gaddafi ain’t leaving nothing to chance – he is [importing mercenaries!](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2011/02/libya-protests-2.html) Blackwater? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/46 "2011-02-20T07:09:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In Benghazi, [both sides escalate violence.](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/02/in-libyan-protests-both-sides-escalate-violence/71484/) The article’s headline strikes me as intensely unfair, and the moral equivalency shown in the conclusion is telling. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/47 "2011-02-20T09:39:59Z")
This [BBC](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12516156) article claims things are worse. > [@](#): > > Libyan troops have opened fire with machine-guns and large-calibre weapons on anti-government protesters in the second city Benghazi, witnesses say. > > An unknown number of people, including children, are said to have been killed. > > Witnesses described scenes of chaos as snipers shot from the roofs of buildings and demonstrators fought back against troops on the ground. > > A doctor at a local hospital said he and his colleagues were treating hundreds of injured protesters. > > Reports are difficult to verify as Libyan authorities have not allowed foreign journalists into the country, but residents say Benghazi and another eastern city, al-Bayda, appear to be out of government control. > > \ > “Dozens were killed… not 15, dozens,” the unnamed eyewitness said, adding that he had helped take victims to a local hospital. > > The latest deaths take the toll over the past three days of protests in Libya to at least 100 dead. Some reports put it significantly higher. > > A Benghazi resident told the BBC that security forces inside a government compound had fired on protesters with mortars and 14.5mm machine guns - a heavy machine gun typically produced in the former USSR. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/48 "2011-02-20T10:18:16Z")
Ok if they are using helicopter gunships then either the situation is really bad or the people in charge are idiots or worse…both. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/49 "2011-02-20T14:04:23Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Blackwater? Are you serious mate? The accusation is Chadian mercenaries (because they’re saying the ‘mercenaries’ speak French). I suppose it’s possible. Libyans have been mucking around in the Sahel for a while and there are plenty of unemployed young idiots they can hire. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/50 "2011-02-20T14:24:31Z")
I don’t claim to be an expert on middle eastern politics and certainly not on the political reality of running a dictatorship - but can the protests actually bring Qaddafi down if the army is able and (it would appear perfectly) willing to fire on the demonstrators? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/51 "2011-02-20T16:13:34Z")
If BBC reporting is right, it’s only in one part of the country, so I am going to guess not. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/52 "2011-02-20T19:03:04Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > If BBC reporting is right, it’s only in one part of the country, so I am going to guess not. CNN reports mentioned that all this is going on in Benghazi where Gaddafi has never really been popular, but it doesn’t matter because everything is centralized in Tripoli. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/53 "2011-02-20T19:04:59Z")
If the U.S. ever does get involved in this . . . Well, we happen to know that Tripoli is especially vulnerable to Marines. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/54 "2011-02-20T20:19:55Z")
Well, the protestors are now driving tanks around, so clearly this is just going to blow over. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/55 "2011-02-20T20:24:27Z")
Really where did you see that?!! Bloody hell, if that is true that smells like civil war. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/56 "2011-02-20T20:41:01Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Well, the protestors are now driving tanks around, so clearly this is just going to blow over. Where did they get tanks?! ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/57 "2011-02-20T21:02:36Z")
Muddled reports that the army in Benghazi has switched sides, apart from one brigade. Reports now of gunfire in Tripoli. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/58 "2011-02-20T21:04:56Z")
Civil war… Bloody hell that could be really very bad. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/59 "2011-02-20T21:07:34Z")
CNN reports a crowd in Benghazi has overrun an army camp and distributed the guns, ammo and food to the people. This is not going to be as nearly-bloodless as the Egyptian revolution. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/60 "2011-02-20T21:17:00Z")
If all these reports are true, Gaddafi just lost control of the eastern half of the country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=4)