# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/601 "2011-03-10T19:48:40Z")
BTW, has Israel taken any position on the Libyan revolution? Gaddafi has always been vociferously anti-Israel; we really don’t know how the rebels feel about it. Other than whether Gaddafi should go, it is almost impossible at this point to know the state of public opinion in Libya on any issue. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/602 "2011-03-10T19:55:40Z")
Israel has been working hard on its carpet impression. Nothing we say right now would he in any way helpful. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/603 "2011-03-10T23:23:33Z")
That’s not true. If Israel enthusiastically came out in support for Quadaffi that might just give the rebels the support they need to end him. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/604 "2011-03-10T23:49:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > That’s not true. If Israel enthusiastically came out in support for Quadaffi that might just give the rebels the support they need to end him. Right. Because the only thing that the Libyan rebels need is clearly a pep talk from their mortal enemies. :rolleyes: Incidentally, how about answering the question? Here it is again in case you missed it the first couple times: “Because of the situation Libyans find themselves in – limited access to healthcare, high unemployment, a corrupt and repressive regime ruling over them, etc. – do you agree that violence is the only recourse these people have to effect any kind of justice for themselves?” I think it would behoove you to clarify your position, Finn. Otherwise, some people just might read your contradictory stances as abject hypocrisy… ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/605 "2011-03-11T00:05:24Z")
If we’re going to do something, we need to do it soon. A no-fly zone seems to be the very least we can do. The rebels don’t seem to want other nations to put boots on the ground, but special forces might be able to help form them into a fighting force and we can potentially import weapons. It’s getting to be go time, though. Then again, I still strongly support assassination as the preferred method of dealing with Quadaffi and his inner circle. [ > [@](#): > > March 10 Rebel fighters fled the strategic refinery town of Ras Lanuf under ferocious rocket attacks and airstrikes by forces loyal to the Libyan leader, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi. Bold plans of a westward drive to Tripoli by the undermanned and ill-equipped rebel army were dashed by the superior Qaddafi forces, which are seeking to retake several eastern oil cities that slipped from the government’s control in the first days of the uprising. Morale among the fighters seemed to be weakening, even as Agence-France Presse reported that the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, had recognized the opposition Libyan National Council. ]([Libya - The New York Times](http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/libya/index.html)) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/606 "2011-03-11T00:20:53Z")
I saw a military expert talk of 350 to 500 targets .if they do a no fly zone. It would require a fleet of jets and bombers that are already being used. The anti aircraft is modern and would be dangerous. Libya also has jets. Then, what if that is not enough? Do we supply arms and men? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/607 "2011-03-11T00:34:01Z")
At the risk of… > [@gonzomax](#): > > It would require a fleet of jets and bombers that are already being used. No. There are free planes among NATO member countries. The US in particular hardly has our stealth air wings tasked to capacity currently. > [@](#): > > Then, what if that is not enough? Do we supply arms Yes. > [@](#): > > and men? Only if requested. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/608 "2011-03-11T00:39:18Z")
[Rebels retreat from Ras Lanuf.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/201131041228856242.html) Zawiyah is still a rebel core surrounded by the army. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/609 "2011-03-11T00:46:55Z")
If only someone had posted something about Ras Lanuf. Perhaps in post 605. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/610 "2011-03-11T02:35:24Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I saw a military expert talk of 350 to 500 targets .if they do a no fly zone. It would require a fleet of jets and bombers that are already being used. The anti aircraft is modern and would be dangerous. Libya also has jets. > Then, what if that is not enough? Do we supply arms and men? It seems the no-flight zone concept is pretty much out, since China and Russia oppose it (except if Kadhafi was to make something truly awful like using chemical weapons or organizing a large scale massacre). Even within NATO, it appears to not get much support, due to the extent of the operation, and the assets needed (I read about 600 aircrafts). That would be the reason to propose to just bomb the airfields. FTR, at the moment, France seems to be envisioning some kind of selective bombing, within the frame of a coalition led by the UK and France and including some Arab countries. It seems that direct attacks, though much more difficult to defend from a diplomatic point of view, are way easier to implement than a no flight zone. FTR, I think weapons should been provided (should have been provided like some weeks ago, in fact). I’ve nothing against men, either, but the rebels don’t want them. I’ve read that bombings would require the presence of special forces on the ground, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/611 "2011-03-11T03:08:28Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Thus, you took every opportunity to imply and/or explicitly state that Gaddafi stole the nation’s oil revenues, doing absolutely nothing for the benefit of his people. I refuted your position with a devastating cite, which showed just one example of a very expensive project funded by the Colonel’s government for the benefit of the people. Your response? You moved your goalposts, somehow jumping from “Gaddafi never does anything for the people” to “Gaddafi, like all despots, undertakes immense public works projects for the people.” I did not move any goalposts and you have refuted nothing. I pointed out a simple and self-evident historical fact. Where is the health care, the economic freedom, the personal liberty of the typical Libyan? Paying foreigners to build a huge pipeline running water to three cities where the majority of the foreign investors in the dictator’s projects live and work and which could have probably gotten water cheaper through desalination from the sea, (while failing to provide any significant agricultural resources), is not doing anything for the people. Autobahns, trains running on time, bread and circuses, and similar stunts have been the hallmark of despots for ages and a big pipe is no exception. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/612 "2011-03-11T03:41:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Autobahns, trains running on time, bread and circuses, and similar stunts have been the hallmark of despots for ages and a big pipe is no exception. Well, for someone who pulls [Commissar’s stunt like this with language](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13523344&postcount=154), it very well could be, in his mind, an exception. After all, if one’s going to pretend a sentence clearly does not mean what it clearly does, why would any other fact receive different treatment from that person? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/613 "2011-03-11T11:04:49Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Right. Because the only thing that the Libyan rebels need is clearly a pep talk from their mortal enemies. :rolleyes: > > Incidentally, how about answering the question? Here it is again in case you missed it the first couple times: > > “Because of the situation Libyans find themselves in – limited access to healthcare, high unemployment, a corrupt and repressive regime ruling over them, etc. – do you agree that violence is the only recourse these people have to effect any kind of justice for themselves?” > > I think it would behoove you to clarify your position, Finn. Otherwise, some people just might read your contradictory stances as abject hypocrisy… If violence is what it takes for people to free themselves from tyranny then violence is justified. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/614 "2011-03-11T11:26:49Z")
And I don’t belive 600 aircraft are required. We’re always hearing about how super-awesome carrier groups are yet now they’re suddenly not capable of taking out a clapped out, obsolete air defence system and even more obsolete air force (all handily concentrated in three bases along the coast) of a country in the grip of a civil war? What the hell has the US tax payer been spending their money on them for then? [CSG Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_strike_group) > [@](#): > > CSGs are tasked to accomplish a variety of wartime missions, as well as a wide variety of functions in situations short of war. The peacetime mission is to conduct forward presence operations, to help shape the strategic environment, deter conflict, build interoperability with allies, and respond to crises when necessary. > > \ > > ``` > * **Power projection ashore against a wide range of strategic, operational, and tactical targets defended by sophisticated air defense systems, during day and night, in all weather conditions.** > > ``` > > \ > > ``` > * Establishing air superiority or supremacy in an area by seizing and maintaining control of designated airspace. > > ``` Besides: [Libyan Air Defense Would Fade quickly](http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0) > [@](#): > > Gates has said that a no-fly zone can’t stop helicopters,” the first Gen. says “That’s wrong. There are only three places in Libya where helicopters can stage, fuel, rearm and re-equip – one in Tripoli, one in Benghazi and one in the eastern oil fields that are in the hands of the rebels. They are all near the coast. All the rest of Libya is barren. > > “The U.S. Air Force has specialized in operations to take down integrated air defense, crater runways and destroy helicopter staging areas,” he says. “We know where they are. You can shoot down low-flying helicopter with Aim-9X Sidewinders. The suppression would take 24-48 hours with assets that aren’t being used for Iraq or Afghanistan. We cleaned out Baghdad in 24-hr. in 1991 and 2003. Libya wouldn’t be that intense. The SA-6 is the best surface to air missile they have and the old F-1 Mirages are the best fighter.” It’s not that we can’t. It’s that we won’t. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/615 "2011-03-11T14:11:17Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > If violence is what it takes for people to free themselves from tyranny then violence is justified. I’m more amused that he was so thoroughly whoosed by such an obvious joke about Israel throwing its support to Quadaffi so that people would knee-jerk into the rebels’ camp. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/616 "2011-03-11T14:29:12Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I’m more amused that he was so thoroughly whoosed by such an obvious joke about Israel throwing its support to Quadaffi so that people would knee-jerk into the rebels’ camp. Reading an interesting New Scientist article on the sophistication of dictatorships in dealing with the internet and dissent now. I have no doubt whatsoever that we have ‘opinion-shaping’ agents at work on this board. Of course most of them are freelance but without doubt we have official ‘apologists’ for at least two or three dreadful foreign regimes around here. It’s the combination of advanced ability to reason combined with legalistic imperviousness to evidence that goes counter to defending the target. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/617 "2011-03-11T15:18:32Z")
Its one thing to point to the mass murder of civilians 15 years in the past as justification for invasion and occupation of a country. Its an entirely different thing to try and prevent something that is presently occurring. We pick winners in conflicts all the time and all too often we have picked the ruthless despot that we think we can control rather than the democratic movement that might lead to communism. Why is enforcinga no fly zone over Libya so fucking controversial? Republicans should introduce a bill and force a vote on it, its really the only thing they are good for. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/618 "2011-03-11T15:39:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Its one thing to point to the mass murder of civilians 15 years in the past as justification for invasion and occupation of a country. > > Its an entirely different thing to try and prevent something that is presently occurring. > > We pick winners in conflicts all the time and all too often we have picked the ruthless despot that we think we can control rather than the democratic movement that might lead to communism. Why is enforcinga no fly zone over Libya so fucking controversial? Republicans should introduce a bill and force a vote on it, its really the only thing they are good for. Yes. McCain is making all the right noises. it’s just Obama’s hand-wringing gutlessness while Gadaffi crushes the rebellion that gets me. Cashed the Nobel cheque already I suppose. I expect Clinton and Gates to cynically sit by until they can say: ‘Oh noes, he’s won. Oh well, what can you do.’ This is just as cynical a betrayal as Bush 1 over the Iraq rebellions. Another cynical act is the ‘arms embargo’ applying to both sides. Those with the guns already and those without. The UK and France should just act together and screw the UN. There are war-crimes in progress and time means lives. And this is only the beginning. What will come after he’s won will be much worse. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/619 "2011-03-11T16:12:47Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > This is just as cynical a betrayal as Bush 1 over the Iraq rebellions. No, it isn’t. The Obama Admin did not **encourage** this before it started. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/620 "2011-03-11T16:14:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, it isn’t. The Obama Admin did not **encourage** this before it started. We have been encouraging them from Day 1. Besides - if a country continually spouts its mouth off about ‘Freedom. Yay!’ it damn well should be prepared to put up or shut up in situations like this. Clinton was haunted by his inaction over Rwanda and this will haunt Obama if he doesn’t grow a pair PDQ. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=32)