# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/721 "2011-03-18T07:50:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [They have been authorized.](http://abcnews.go.com/International/authorize-strikes-libya-gadhafi-vows-offensive/story?id=13159976) To protect civilians, “all necessary measures,” short of ground troops, are authorized. Very broad mandate. **GREAT !!!** I’ve been waiting for the result of the vote since yesterday at noon (French time, early morning in the USA), went up to bed too early to know, and the morning news on my radio didn’t even thought it was worth mentionning :rolleyes: I had been convinced nothing would be done for some time and I’m overjoyed. :):):)🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/722 "2011-03-18T08:11:29Z")
Monty, you’re arguing with someone who’s just tried to claim that not being butchered by a power-mad autocrat in house-to-house fighting because they wanted freedom, is the _worst possible outcome **for the people who would otherwise be murdered.** _ This is the same person who has supported totalitarian regimes invading and occupying their neighbors, but when it comes to cheering on the death of American servicemen who might help to protect innocent civilians, he’s strongly in support of “sovereignty”. This is the same person who claimed that North Korea could wage war against another nation without having to show a valid casus belli, before claiming that we could not wage war against Libya without having a valid casus belli. This is the same poster who claimed that the allowance for self defense under the UN Charter had nothing to do with self defense and it was, in fact, properly applied when a nation wasn’t threatened and didn’t even think it was threatened. And then later claimed that we couldn’t attack Libya because we weren’t acting in self defense. This is the same poster who claims that people can not be trusted to live their own lives because people make bad choices, so if someone seizes power and rules as a tyrant they should be trusted with ruling _everybody’s lives_… despite being a person, too. This is the same poster who’s claimed that fighting in the streets invariably demonstrates the true will of the people. Except when it’s a totalitarian thug who’s being threatened, and then the people who want freedom should be slaughtered. This is the same poster who’s claimed that the will of the people/the people’s best interests are what he really cares about, but then he seeks to outlaw and criminalize every single means by which the people might make their will known, from criticizing the government’s choices to the simple act of voting. This is the same poster who’s claimed that he opposes imperialism, when during its height the Soviet Union held an empire that stretched 13 time zones. This is the same poster who claims that he will only support a tyrannical regime if it provides for the needs of the people and maintains ‘socialism’, and then ignores cites that shows that the Libyan people get such awful health care that they have to leave the country and go to other nations to get health care, that roughly 1/4 young people are unemployed, and that Quadaffi’s inner circle are so rich that they’re well known on the European jet-set as partyers and playboys. This is the same poster who claims that a “socialist” economy is important to him, and yet China has an economy that’s becoming increasingly capitalist (and has massive wealth and standard-of-living disparities between the cities and the rural areas) while Saudi Arabia has an economy that’s centrally planned with the few private enterprises that are allowed being strictly controlled and regulated by the central authority. This is a poster who started a thread _on the Straight Dope_, claiming that he expected Dopers to rally to his side and champion Quadaffi’s regime and voice anger at the protesters wanting freedom. This is a poster who actually decided to throw in the phrase “I hope to Lenin” in the context of wishing death on American aviators, on an American message board, where people overwhelmingly oppose Quadaffi’s actions. Give it up, Jake. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/723 "2011-03-18T08:12:08Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Yes, I realize that your favored outcome has come to pass, my friend; there is no need to shout about it. > > As most of you will have guessed, I am highly disappointed in this turn of events. I condemn this resolution, and I condemn both Russia and the People’s Republic for failing to stop it (though, as has been pointed out, we know not their real reasons for this). > > At this point, I have only two statements to make: > > (1) Politics notwithstanding, this is the worst result possible for the people of Libya. A halt in hostilities will effectively split the nation in two, which will benefit neither of the sides. > > (2) I have read reports that the Libyan government may currently possess modern Russian-made anti-aircraft weaponry. I hope to Lenin that this is true. May the aerial warships of the West burn in the glorious fire of Libyan sovereignty. This post is far too over-the-top for anyone to think it represents your genuine beliefs. If you’ve taken any acting classes, you ought to demand your money back. Beyond that, if you want some tips on how to actually make post that will convince people that you’re a communist I’m sure there are people who would be willing to help. One last thing. It’s obviously against the rules for me to suggest you’re lying and even if it weren’t the rules I wouldn’t do anything so gauche. I’ll take your word for it that you genuinely are a communist who is so wildly ignorant of dialectal materialism that you think that modern China is a communist country committed to being a worker’s paradise and that rampant discrimination against those who are perceived racial inferiors is perfectly in keeping with the Ulyanov’s views. I’m merely suggesting you take some tips from people who better understand the doctrines that you have chosen to adopt and in doing so you’ll be able to make posts that actually will get people to respect you as opposed to laughing themselves sick. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/724 "2011-03-18T08:18:07Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > (2) I have read reports that the Libyan government may currently possess modern Russian-made anti-aircraft weaponry. I hope to Lenin that this is true. May the aerial warships of the West burn in the glorious fire of Libyan sovereignty. Dude The libyans had modern russian anti-aircraft weaponry back in the days of operation el dorado canyon. Twice modern airforces have gone downtown in Bagdad and mostly returned. When the dogs of war get unleashed, no russian made bottle rocket is going to stop a modern airforce in its tracks. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/725 "2011-03-18T08:49:20Z")
ABOUT FRAKKIN’ TIME!!! I had turned off the news yesterday to avoid the fallout from Japan. (Bad taste, I know.) The tragedy in Japan is horrible, but so is the one in Libya, and I worried that the public’s attention had shifted too much. My hope now is that Arab League forces will be part of the operational group. I cannot of think of anything that would make the Egyptian people prouder right now than seeing their air force help liberate their neighbors. I know their military/government has been very helpful in keeping their border open to allow assistance to come in. I certainly hope this sends the right message to Bahrain and other governments who are cracking down on protesters. Let them sit in the squares and march and carry banners and engage in peaceful protests. I have not heard of Bahrainis trying to storm the palace, but the king is starting to give them reason to. I can only imagine the unrest if the US called in NATO troops to break up demonstrations. Obama should make clear in uncertain terms just what the 5th Fleet is capable of accomplishing. If they want foreign intervention, we could certainly oblige. [QUOTE=Ibn Warraq] One last thing. It’s obviously against the rules for me to suggest you’re lying and even if it weren’t the rules I wouldn’t do anything so gauche. [/QUOTE] Lying isn’t gauche. It is very droite. Wishing for utopian ideals is very gauche. Wishing for the return of mass-murdering failed regimes or the success of failing ones is very sinister though. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/726 "2011-03-18T08:54:58Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Monty, you’re arguing with someone who’s just tried to claim that not being butchered by a power-mad autocrat in house-to-house fighting because they wanted freedom, is the _worst possible outcome **for the people who would otherwise be murdered.** _ I’m still trying wrap my mind around “modern Russian weapons” compared to “modern western weapons.” That’s gold, there, gold! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/727 "2011-03-18T09:03:28Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That’s gold, there, gold! If someone was in the fertilizer business. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/728 "2011-03-18T10:24:10Z")
:smack:Must’ve been the fertilizer that ate the _e_ I dropped from one word upthread. Drat. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/729 "2011-03-18T11:56:46Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > None of this is compelling. I don’t want to see a democratic North Africa; I oppose open-borders economic policies; regional tourism has done just fine under the authoritarian governments; China’s developing the biggest high-speed train network in the world with absolutely no democratic input. Also, no: the best way to fight imperialism is to not let the imperialists (read: NATO) establish a foothold in your backyard. You’ve just established your position is morally bankrupt. When you say you do not want a democratic North Africa, you are implying you want innocent people to be tortured, jailed and killed. Do you really want this or are you just playing devil’s advocate? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/730 "2011-03-18T12:00:29Z")
[http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/17/inside\_classified\_hill\_briefing\_administration\_spells\_out\_war\_plan\_for\_libya?sms\_ss=twitter&at\_xt=4d82de1b1d470f0f,0](http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/17/inside_classified_hill_briefing_administration_spells_out_war_plan_for_libya?sms_ss=twitter&at_xt=4d82de1b1d470f0f,0) Got to dash, got to also quote this. > [@](#): > > Several senators emerged from the briefing convinced that the administration was intent on beginning military action against the forces of Col. Muammar al-Qaddafi within the next few days and that such action would include both a no-fly zone as well as a “no-drive zone” to prevent Qaddafi from crushing the rebel forces, especially those now concentrated in Benghazi. > > “It looks like we have Arab countries ready to participate in a no-fly and no-drive endeavor,” Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) told reporters after the briefing. > > Asked what he learned from the briefing, Graham said, “I learned that it’s not too late, that the opposition forces are under siege but they are holding, and that with a timely intervention, a no-fly zone and no-drive zone, we can turn this thing around.” > > Asked exactly what the first wave of attacks would look like, Graham said, “We ground his aircraft and some tanks start getting blown up that are headed toward the opposition forces.” > > As for when the attacks would start, he said “We’re talking days, not weeks, and I’m hoping hours, not days,” Operating out of Sicily. ---
**Author:** ![Khaki\_Campbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Khaki\_Campbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khaki_Campbell)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/731 "2011-03-18T12:36:27Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I oppose open-borders economic policies; Just out of curiosity, do you also oppose open-borders policies for the circulation of people ? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/732 "2011-03-18T13:31:38Z")
[Libyan government declares immediate cease-fire.](http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/03/libya-calls-for-immediate-cease-fire-after-un-resolution/1) ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/733 "2011-03-18T13:45:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Libyan government declares immediate cease-fire.](http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/03/libya-calls-for-immediate-cease-fire-after-un-resolution/1) Goddamned Gaddafi! The guy is a mad genius. He’ll just say anything! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/734 "2011-03-18T14:55:21Z")
Reports are that Kadaffy’s troops are shelling and attacking Misrata while declaring a cease fire. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/735 "2011-03-18T15:05:42Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Reports are that Kadaffy’s troops are shelling and attacking Misrata while declaring a cease fire. “What? I meant a cease-fire for **them!** Who didn’t get that?!” ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/736 "2011-03-18T15:26:24Z")
> [@glowacks](#): > > I’d really like to know what the hell “The West” said to China to get them to abstain. I really hate agreeing with Commissar, but the totalitarian regimes need to stick together and prevent the “scourge” of representative democracy from determining policy. I guess they could have convinced them that if they veto’d any further loss of civilian life was going to be on their hands, but I’d like to know why China would _care_ about that. I really can’t imagine threatening them with much of anything else, or abstaining being a natural position for China to take. They must feel secure that they have indoctrinated the population sufficiently that there is practically no chance for a similar revolution, and that they have shown the people good sustainable economic growth is possible as long as you endure the oppression of a totalitarian government that doesn’t care about your individual rights. I’m not wondering what they threatened China with, but rather what they promised them. I feel a big carrot must have been used here, not a big stick. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/737 "2011-03-18T15:59:01Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Reports are that Kadaffy’s troops are shelling and attacking Misrata while declaring a cease fire. It takes two to declare a ceasefire even if Gadaffi does mean it as a tactical measure until the heat is off. The Rebel Alliance would be silly to observe one. Counter-attack so we can put the mad dog down. Don’t let him play for time. I guess that his military don’t want their toys all broken up and he’ll end up dead PDQ once the bombs and missiles start falling. If I were the British and French I’d sink a few ships and bomb his tanks and artillery: ‘ceasefire’ or not. A ceasefire does not mean civilians are not being brutalised in Tripoli and in his dungeons in the recently recaptured towns. One civilian shot by one mercenary is enough. Time for some short sharp shocks. Interesting that the USS Enterprise is hightailing it back to the Red Sea. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/738 "2011-03-18T16:01:08Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I’m not wondering what they threatened China with, but rather what they promised them. I feel a big carrot must have been used here, not a big stick. Maybe the Chinese didn’t want to be seen actively protecting him and finding themselves on the wrong side if the rebels win? Or maybe they don’t mind the West getting embroiled in this. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/739 "2011-03-18T16:16:02Z")
No cite, cause I don’t remember where I read this, but I read last night that Gaddafi has attempted to block some of China’s project/influence-building in Africa. Oops. ETA [cite](http://bloodandtreasure.typepad.com/blood_treasure/2011/03/repress-here-liberate-there.html) - generally lefty blog; one I’ve found interesting & insightful on China. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/740 "2011-03-18T16:32:21Z")
As far as China, I agree some big carrots were offered more than big sticks. Though even they would rather see the oil markets stabilize sooner than later, and Libya is still a major producer. And they have become one of the largest investors in Africa, with far less strings attached, and would want to see any palace fires to end quickly rather than start to flare up across the whole continent. (Though West Africa stills needs several regime changes. And I keep hoping Mugabe has a coronary soon.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=38)