# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/801 "2011-03-20T13:46:58Z")
> [@Agnostic\_Pagan](#): > > I don’t think so. He might be lucky to reach Malta. If he did, I think he would be trying to use them against the ships in the Med. Have not heard of any reports along those lines. The various mid-range ballistic missiles used he may have access to are accurate enough to hit a city, with a bit of luck. Using them against ships would be pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/802 "2011-03-20T14:18:21Z")
Found this with a quick google. [Libyan missile capabilities](http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Libya/Missile/index.html). Does not sound like he has anything operational beyond short-range. As far as attacking ships, I could see him being stupid enough to try. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/803 "2011-03-20T14:25:19Z")
I don’t believe Libya has anything beyond Scud-B’s which have a range of 300 km. That wouldn’t be enough to hit even Malta though it could hit an Italian island called Lampedusa. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/804 "2011-03-20T14:39:02Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You really want to base the idea of not getting involved on the idea that about 2 hundred militants could had been radical Islamists? It is more likely that they may also had followed the words of Gadaffy to go against the US. > > [http://www.news24.com/Africa/News/Africa-rejects-Iraq-war-Gaddafi-20030204](http://www.news24.com/Africa/News/Africa-rejects-Iraq-war-Gaddafi-20030204) In truth ,we have no idea what kind of support there is for Gadaffy throughout the country. Is it a east /west division? Do the local tribes support him? After we bomb him for a while killing civilians and destroying infrastructure, what if he is still standing? Do we send in soldiers? War is messy. It does not work out as easily as it is planned. The results rarely match predictions. Was Iraq supposed to last decades? Was Afghanistan supposed to go on endlessly? How about Vietnam? Gadaffy has no place to go. He can not give up. His soldiers are fighting and dying. There were lots of Libyans in Iraq fighting against America. There are plenty of Libyans that hate the west for interfering in the Middle East. We are not seen by many as liberators but exploiters and occupiers. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/805 "2011-03-20T15:05:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The various mid-range ballistic missiles used he may have access to are accurate enough to hit a city, with a bit of luck. Using them against ships would be pointless. Gaddafi’s boogeyman is Al Qaeda. AFAIK he hasn’t even mentioned Israel. If anything, he could try to target Italy or Corsica but he knows it would justify ground troops so he won’t. He knows that a no-fly-zone isn’t enough to oust him, my bet is that he’ll just sit tight and wreck local mayhem. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/806 "2011-03-20T15:25:16Z")
> [@Gozu](#): > > Gaddafi’s boogeyman is Al Qaeda. AFAIK he hasn’t even mentioned Israel. If anything, he could try to target Italy or Corsica but he knows it would justify ground troops so he won’t. You’re probably right. Still, my fear is that now that several Muslim states have joined the coalition, he may be tempted to pull a Saddam. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/807 "2011-03-20T16:12:54Z")
> [@Gozu](#): > > If anything, he could try to target Italy or Corsica Italy still likes him because of his investments, does it not? There was a large Italian population when Libya was an Italian colony before WWII. Are there families there now if Italian descent? ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/808 "2011-03-20T16:24:25Z")
Amid reports of massive civilian casualties caused by indiscriminate Western bombardment, the Arab League has come out in condemnation of the airstrikes. ‘“What is happening in Libya differs from the aim of imposing a no-fly zone, and what we want is the protection of civilians and not the bombardment of more civilians,” said Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa.’ > **[Libya air strikes: Gaddafi vows 'long war'](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12798568)** > > Col Gaddafi says Libya will fight a "long war" after air strikes against his forces by the US, France and the UK to protect rebel-held areas. Interesting. The West is so bloodthirsty and its actions so brutal that it took it less than a day to alienate its Arab allies in the endeavor. Go, savages. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/809 "2011-03-20T16:29:12Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Amid reports of massive civilian casualties caused by indiscriminate Western bombardment, the Arab League has come out in condemnation of the airstrikes. > > ‘“What is happening in Libya differs from the aim of imposing a no-fly zone, and what we want is the protection of civilians and not the bombardment of more civilians,” said Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa.’ > > [Libya air strikes: Gaddafi vows 'long war' - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12798568) > > Interesting. The West is so bloodthirsty and its actions so brutal that it took it less than a day to alienate its Arab allies in the endeavor. Go, savages. Yep, this entire charade will do nothing but be used to fuel more hate for the west ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/810 "2011-03-20T16:31:10Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Amid reports of massive civilian casualties caused by indiscriminate Western bombardment, the Arab League has come out in condemnation of the airstrikes. > > ‘“What is happening in Libya differs from the aim of imposing a no-fly zone, and what we want is the protection of civilians and not the bombardment of more civilians,” said Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa.’ > > [Libya air strikes: Gaddafi vows 'long war' - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12798568) > > Interesting. The West is so bloodthirsty and its actions so brutal that it took it less than a day to alienate its Arab allies in the endeavor. Go, savages. A no fly zone includes the bombing of anti-air defenses. If you want a no fly zone, you want the bombing of anti-air defenses. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/811 "2011-03-20T16:31:36Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Yep, this entire charade will do nothing but be used to fuel more hate for the west You’d almost think those sneaky Arabs tricked us into attacking. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/812 "2011-03-20T16:36:50Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > A no fly zone includes the bombing of anti-air defenses. If you want a no fly zone, you want the bombing of anti-air defenses. That’s debatable, but clearly the Arab League does not believe that your aggression is limited to the targeting of anti-aircraft weaponry. You are killing civilians, and thus squandering the one chance you had to prove that you aren’t just bloodthirsty crusading barbarians after all. Way to go. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/813 "2011-03-20T17:19:59Z")
We always claim we make surgical strikes limiting collateral damage. Afterwards, we find out how many missiles went awry. There are plenty of civilians in Libya getting killed by our 70 million dollars of missiles. We are creating lots of new enemies. France is spearheading the operation while passing laws against Arab women wearing burkhas in public. At best there are lots of mixed messages spurring distrust. The Arab League is meeting to re-assess the operation. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/814 "2011-03-20T17:23:08Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > That’s debatable, but clearly the Arab League does not believe that your aggression is limited to the targeting of anti-aircraft weaponry. You are killing civilians, and thus squandering the one chance you had to prove that you aren’t just bloodthirsty crusading barbarians after all. Way to go. The first part is not debatable. Defense Secretary Gates was pretty clear on this a few weeks ago - “Let’s call a spade a spade,” Gates said at a House Appropriations subcommittee hearing. “A no-fly zone begins with an attack on Libya to destroy the air defenses.” Feel free to decry any civilian deaths all you want, but neither you, nor the Arab League can pretend not to know what a no-fly zone would involve. If they didn’t want to risk civilian casualties, they should have spoken up before hand, not given their support and then taken it back. As the lack of action by your PRC pals in the Security Council shows, this whole thing is nothing but grays - anyone looking for black and white answers is either a fool or disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/815 "2011-03-20T17:45:14Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > The first part is not debatable. Defense Secretary Gates was pretty clear on this a few weeks ago - > > “Let’s call a spade a spade,” Gates said at a House Appropriations subcommittee hearing. “A no-fly zone begins with an attack on Libya to destroy the air defenses.” No, it is perfectly debatable. A “no-fly zone” is precisely that; a zone in which a nation is prevented from wielding aerial capabilities. Anti-air defenses do not fly. Hence, it cannot be argued that destroying them is somehow necessary to the existence of a no-fly zone. Sure, it makes your aggression easier to pull off, but that’s not quite the same thing. > [@](#): > > Feel free to decry any civilian deaths all you want, but neither you, nor the Arab League can pretend not to know what a no-fly zone would involve. If they didn’t want to risk civilian casualties, they should have spoken up before hand, not given their support and then taken it back. So you’re faulting the Arab League for believing that you would actually try not to kill civilians this time? Apparently they were expecting you to, you know, enforce a no-fly zone by keeping Libyan jets out of the air. How you went from this to carpet-bombing Tripoli within 24 hours is beyond me, and apparently the Arab League feels the same way. > [@](#): > > As the lack of action by your PRC pals in the Security Council shows, this whole thing is nothing but grays - anyone looking for black and white answers is either a fool or disingenuous. Which is no how your beloved West sold this plan. For weeks, you painted Gaddafi as a terrible villain who would only be checked by heroic Western air-power. Very much black and white. Now it turns out that you are guilty of the same things you’ve been accusing Gaddafi of - namely, the indiscriminate killing of civilians. You cannot escape this simply by pulling the, “eh, it’s all gray” card. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/816 "2011-03-20T17:53:53Z")
46 deaths claimed, at least one of which is claimed to be a civilian. Given the number of places we hit with missiles, that strikes me as a bit low, even if they were all soldiers. Of course, the reports were that our good friend the Colonel has been gathering dead bodies to salt at bomb sites and claim that they were killed by bombing. Of course, we’ve also got reports that he is gathering people to use as human shields. Your call as to what the truth actually is. Miserata is under heavy fire at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/817 "2011-03-20T18:00:05Z")
Libyan State TV has been showing the civilian casualties. The bodies are… remarkably intact and unburned compared to the soldier casualties. As if they weren’t killed by the same weapons. The BBC has just said Amr Moussa said he was being misquoted about the NFZ, and the Arab League doesn’t have a problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/818 "2011-03-20T18:16:10Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > No, it is perfectly debatable. A “no-fly zone” is precisely that; a zone in which a nation is prevented from wielding aerial capabilities. Anti-air defenses do not fly. Hence, it cannot be argued that destroying them is somehow necessary to the existence of a no-fly zone. Sure, it makes your aggression easier to pull off, but that’s not quite the same thing. > > So you’re faulting the Arab League for believing that you would actually try not to kill civilians this time? Apparently they were expecting you to, you know, enforce a no-fly zone by keeping Libyan jets out of the air. How you went from this to carpet-bombing Tripoli within 24 hours is beyond me, and apparently the Arab League feels the same way. > > Which is no how your beloved West sold this plan. For weeks, you painted Gaddafi as a terrible villain who would only be checked by heroic Western air-power. Very much black and white. Now it turns out that you are guilty of the same things you’ve been accusing Gaddafi of - namely, the indiscriminate killing of civilians. You cannot escape this simply by pulling the, “eh, it’s all gray” card. Secretary Gates made if very clear what a no fly zone over Libya would entail, I saw it on TV, and the Arab League certainly heard him too. It includes eliminating air defense systems. Not surprisingly, there are air defense systems in Tripoli. They were hit. People were killed, certainly some of them were civilians. This by the way was also not a “carpet-bombing” of Tripoli, and when you use such a term, you sound rediculous and weaken your argument. However, I do admit that the people killed care little if they are hit by a cruise missile, or the payload of a B-52. By the way, you specifically are responding to my post and make note of “the same things you’ve been accusing Gaddafi of.” I have made no such claims, so retract your broad brush a bit. I have made no claims in support of the US action. My only claim was that anyone giving any support to the UN action - including the Arab League - knew full well what it would entail, including the deaths of civilians. I do not celebrate that fact, but I acknowledge it. Gaddafi has also killed civilians in recent weeks, a fact that I also acknowledge, as should you. Also, when I spoke of people being fools or disingenuous, I fully include those who blindly support any US military action without any thought beyond how good the flag will photograph over a new shoreline. Military action means death, on both sides. War is a brutal, horrible undertaking. There is nothing pretty, nor neat about it. When the UN resolution was announced, I fully realized what it would mean for the people of Libya, and what some of the long term repercussions could be for the US and you will have to take my word for it that there is no joy in my heart about either. Things would be ever so much neater if a CIA wet team just took the Colonel out, but we would never hear the end of that from you either. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/819 "2011-03-20T18:33:52Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > Secretary Gates made if very clear what a no fly zone over Libya would entail, I saw it on TV, and the Arab League certainly heard him too. It includes eliminating air defense systems. Not surprisingly, there are air defense systems in Tripoli. They were hit. People were killed, certainly some of them were civilians. This by the way was also not a “carpet-bombing” of Tripoli, and when you use such a term, you sound rediculous and weaken your argument. However, I do admit that the people killed care little if they are hit by a cruise missile, or the payload of a B-52. It doesn’t matter what Gates says. He could claim that the daily ritual sacrificing of albino babies is necessary for the continuing functioning of gravity, and that wouldn’t make it true either. There is nothing authorizing Gates to unilaterally modify Security Council resolutions, nor to redefine elementary English words. There is no ambiguity latent in the phrase “no-fly zone.” It is a zone with no flying. It is not a “no-fly and no anti-air defenses zone.” By proceeding with its current course of action, the West is both making a mockery of its supposed morally superior position and violating the very clear text of the resolution (clearly, anti-air defenses are not threatening any civilians). > [@](#): > > By the way, you specifically are responding to my post and make note of “the same things you’ve been accusing Gaddafi of.” I have made no such claims, so retract your broad brush a bit. I have made no claims in support of the US action. My only claim was that anyone giving any support to the UN action - including the Arab League - knew full well what it would entail, including the deaths of civilians. I do not celebrate that fact, but I acknowledge it. Gaddafi has also killed civilians in recent weeks, a fact that I also acknowledge, as should you. In that context, I use “you” to mean “you Westerners,” rather than “you as an individual.” Sorry for the confusion. Incidentally, I have long thought that a fundamental flaw of the English language is that it doesn’t distinguish between the singular “you” and plural “you.” Sloppy. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/820 "2011-03-20T22:22:05Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > As the lack of action by your PRC pals in the Security Council shows, this whole thing is nothing but grays - anyone looking for black and white answers is either a fool or disingenuous. Well they do have a frigate sitting off the coast of libya, supposedly the first time that China has deployed to the med. Which may explain why the coalition did not kick off the offensive with electronic jamming this time around. Declan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=42)