# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/861 "2011-03-21T22:46:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > For that reason, a Korean-like resolution where an armistice leaves Gaddafi indefinitely in uncontested control of the west is unlikely. Saddam survived over a decade of a NFZ and harsh sanctions\*, so why would Gaddafi be any different? - - Which arguably strengthened him, but no matter. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/862 "2011-03-21T22:58:40Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Saddam survived over a decade of a NFZ and harsh sanctions\*, so why would Gaddafi be any different? Saddam had control of the Iraqi oilfields. In Libya, the oil is in the area that is mostly held by the rebels. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/863 "2011-03-21T23:11:02Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Saddam survived over a decade of a NFZ and harsh sanctions\*, so why would Gaddafi be any different? > > - > - Which arguably strengthened him, but no matter. Qaddafi is fighting a quasi-conventional, existential war. The other side will crush him if they have enough training and equipment. The sanctions will, in this case keep Qaddafi from having adequate equipment, and there are already backers for the rebels (both in training and materielle). Sanctions help ensure that the rebels will eventually have much superior military strength, and that will take Qaddafi down. Saddam never had this kind of threat to deal with — and he never could get rid of those Kurds in the North. ---
**Author:** ![humanafterall](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/humanafterall/32/19654_2.png) [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/864 "2011-03-22T02:24:41Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > What “war spoils” exactly are you thinking of? Didn’t we claim some Nazi gold? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/865 "2011-03-22T05:32:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If airstrikes aren’t enough to destroy Gaddafi’s power on the ground but are (as appears to be the case) enough to keep him from taking Benghazi, then we can expect a Korean-War-like situation with a fluctuating front, east to west, for some time – weeks or months or even years. But, unlike Korea, only one side can expect any material outside help. That also distinguishes this war from the Spanish Civil War, to which I recently heard an Arab prof on CNN compare it. Hitler and Mussolini supported Franco, Stalin supported the Republic, but nobody is going to support Gaddafi. (Hugo Chavez might put in a word for him, but he won’t be sending troops or arms or even money. Couldn’t if he wanted to.) For that reason, a Korean-like resolution where an armistice leaves Gaddafi indefinitely in uncontested control of the west is unlikely. I would be surprised if Gaddafi has enough support for a civil war without a mechanized army. Judging from the initial pictures the UN forces went hunting for armored units as well as aircraft and radar installations. Without air support the tanks are sitting ducks. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/866 "2011-03-22T08:58:05Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > I’m not sure what’s going on, but the resolution, while broad, is fluid. Gadhafi could be a target one day, and not the next. I disagree. The resolution is broad enough that they can take any proportional military action in order to “protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan”. I can honestly be argued (and I’d be willing to) that Quadaffi’s very presence in the seat of power, his proven track record as being willing to violate cease fires and his previous statements about being willing to massacre people and go house-to-house to find them all means that while he’s alive (or, at least, in power) that he places the people of Libya “under threat”. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/867 "2011-03-22T09:05:27Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > So yes, if Gadhafi was attacking, or threatening to attack civilians, he would be a legitimate target under the resolution to protect civilians. And no, if Gadhafi was not attacking or threatening to attack civilians, he would not be a legitimate target under the resolution. > . Libyan command centers have been targeted. They certainly don’t _directly_ threaten civilians. They just organize the attacks against them. So, I can’t see how Kadhafi and his direct staff would be a less valid target, being at the head of the organization. I’ve zero issue with eliminating Kadhafi if he could be located. In fact, he should be the primary target. He’s after all much more responsible than Libyan pilots or artillery teams. They just do what he tells them to do. And regarding limiting losses of life, his would probably be the only one needed for success, in all likelihood. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/868 "2011-03-22T09:07:51Z")
Probably not. If Quadaffi was killed, one of his sons would most likely fill the void. And it’s not impossible that some of his generals would, either. I still think that means we should do our best to kill them, though, while avoiding a larger war. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/869 "2011-03-22T09:09:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I would be surprised if Gaddafi has enough support for a civil war without a mechanized army. Judging from the initial pictures the UN forces went hunting for armored units as well as aircraft and radar installations. Without air support the tanks are sitting ducks. They’re also destroying artillery, and even (from what I saw amongst the wrecks) light vehicles probably used to move troops. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/870 "2011-03-22T09:13:08Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Probably not. If Quadaffi was killed, one of his sons would most likely fill the void. . I doubt it. I’m unconvinced that Kadhafi closest “henchmen” would be as faithful to his sons that they’ve been to him. Or that they would trust them enough. And finally, it would be morally devastating. Also, how convinced would the Libyan military be that Khadafi’s sons are up to the task? By the way, there are rumors that Kadhafi would have executed the head of his secret police. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/871 "2011-03-22T09:24:52Z")
They wouldn’t necessarily have to be as faithful to his sons as they are to him. His sons would simply have to kill enough of them to guarantee compliance with the rest. And there’s no particular reason they’d be faithful to Quadaffi but not others; Quadaffi essentially has the support he has because he buys it, not because he’s a great leader. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/872 "2011-03-22T14:15:47Z")
Unconfirmed report that Khamis Gaddafi has been killed, possibly by a “kamikaze” strike by a Libyan pilot turned rebel. An American fighter crashed near Benghazi; crew ejected and have been recovered. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/873 "2011-03-22T15:31:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > an Arab prof on CNN Out of curiosity, has Anderson Cooper managed to find a second Arab (aside from Fouad Ajami) yet? ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/874 "2011-03-22T16:05:09Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > An American fighter crashed near Benghazi; crew ejected and have been recovered. I think this story deserves a little further discussion. There is a non-negligible chance that this plane was brought down by anti-aircraft fire. Of course, the US government immediately blamed mechanical failure, but it almost always does so when these incidents happen in warzones; take such statements with a grain of salt. If the plane was shot down, then this would be a major triumph for Gaddafi’s brave fighters, and will hopefully give the Western aggressors pause in their future reign of terror. Even if the US isn’t lying through its teeth for a change, this still represents over $30 million down the drain. Every major loss like this will further bleed an economically fragile nation, thus making withdrawal of forces all the more likely. Finally, the rest of you war hawks should take a moment to ponder the ramifications of this situation. Your stances seem to be based on the assumption that you can steamroll over Libya with impunity, at no danger to yourself or your attack dogs. As you see, this is not the case. The pilots could just as easily have died or come down in government-held territory. Something like this will very likely happen as this crusade drags on. What then? Will you still support this war of aggression when Gaddafi’s soldiers are using your boys as bargaining chips? Or will you finally see reason then? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/875 "2011-03-22T16:25:04Z")
Well, I always assumed that an international intervention would probably result in a (very) few casualties on the intervening side. Even extremely unbalanced conflicts usually result in some bruises to the stronger side. Even a confirmed report of a strike aircraft being shot down and crew killed wouldn’t change my general attitude. I _am_ wondering how an American F-15 came to be over Libyan soil at all, since my understanding was the the strike aircraft were going to be French, British and so forth, with American support in the form of high-altitude radar planes, ships and missiles. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/876 "2011-03-22T16:51:47Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Out of curiosity, has Anderson Cooper managed to find a second Arab (aside from Fouad Ajami) yet? I see talking Arab heads on his show all the time, but Ajami’s the only regular, so far as I’ve noticed. I only started watching it recently. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/877 "2011-03-22T16:54:40Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Unconfirmed report that Khamis Gaddafi has been killed, possibly by a “kamikaze” strike by a Libyan pilot turned rebel. > > An American fighter crashed near Benghazi; crew ejected and have been recovered. Somehow I don’t think we’ll have to worry about anybody reverse-engineering the thing. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/878 "2011-03-22T17:13:56Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Finally, the rest of you war hawks should take a moment to ponder the ramifications of this situation. Your stances seem to be based on the assumption that you can steamroll over Libya with impunity, at no danger to yourself or your attack dogs. As you see, this is not the case. The pilots could just as easily have died or come down in government-held territory. Something like this will very likely happen as this crusade drags on. What then? Will you still support this war of aggression when Gaddafi’s soldiers are using your boys as bargaining chips? Or will you finally see reason then? I think if you watch a few minutes of John McCain’s 2008 campaign propaganda you will find the answer to your question. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/879 "2011-03-22T17:14:39Z")
I thought our brief only included softening the place up so our allies could get boots on the ground. We’ve arguably done that. Let our allies do their job now. And if they fail, it will be THEIR failure, not ours. All the talking heads are speaking under the assumption that we own this thing, but I recall it being made EXPLICIT that we don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/880 "2011-03-22T19:36:55Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > There is a non-negligible chance that this plane was brought down by anti-aircraft fire. Of course, the US government immediately blamed mechanical failure, but it almost always does so when these incidents happen in warzones; Enough of your BS. You’ve made a flat assertion here. Put up some proof of the US “almost always” blaming mechanical failures for plane crashes in war zones. **For a change** , post some proof of your malarkey. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=45)