# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/881 "2011-03-22T22:12:39Z")
This how things begin to go sour: [**Libya: Six injured as US team botches rescue of downed airmen**](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/22/libya-downed-airmen-rescue) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/882 "2011-03-22T22:14:02Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I thought our brief only included softening the place up so our allies could get boots on the ground. Putting boots on the ground for an occupation is pretty much the only thing _explicitly_ prohibited by the UN resolution. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/883 "2011-03-22T22:20:43Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > This how things begin to go sour: [**Libya: Six injured as US team botches rescue of downed airmen**](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/22/libya-downed-airmen-rescue) Fortunately the Libyans seem to be pretty forgiving. > [@](#): > > Reporters said the villagers had showed no animosity after the incident; instead, they expressed gratitude for the US-led coalition, which they said had saved them from massacre by Gaddafi’s forces. But yeah, whichever American initiated shooting at _friendly civilians_ really fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/884 "2011-03-22T22:24:55Z")
It’ll probably lead to refined ROE’s and a chewing out for whatever idiot authorized them to open fire. Unfortunately this is the fog of war, but hopefully we can fix things. There’s no real reason to think that we can’t. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/885 "2011-03-22T22:37:38Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > I think if you watch a few minutes of John McCain’s 2008 campaign propaganda you will find the answer to your question. Now, to be fair, bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Libya just doesn’t scan. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/886 "2011-03-22T22:56:42Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > …But yeah, whichever American initiated shooting at _friendly civilians_ really fucked up. “Forgiveness” is likely the second thing to go down, after truth, in wars. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > It’ll probably lead to refined ROE’s and a chewing out for whatever idiot authorized them to open fire. Unfortunately this is the fog of war, but hopefully we can fix things. There’s no real reason to think that we can’t. Really? Iraq? Afghanistan? Ring a bell? As for “no boots on the ground,” please, pull the other one – do you honestly think that whatever the UN resolution allows is going to stop the US/UK/France from field intelligence gathering operations? Where that leads nobody knows… Like I said, I am torn over this one as it _appears_ to be the right thing to do. Yet the actual implementation of the resolution in so far as command structure, objectives, limits, goals etc. seems to be all over the place depending on who you ask. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/887 "2011-03-22T23:04:17Z")
Looks like things are proceeding apace: [ > [@](#): > > March 22 The military campaign to destroy air defenses and establish a no-fly zone over Libya has nearly accomplished its initial objectives, and the United States is moving swiftly to hand command to allies in Europe, American officials said, but fighting continued as reports began to emerge of the crash of an American warplane. The crash, which was probably caused by mechanical failure, was the first known setback for the international coalition attacking Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s forces in three days of strikes authorized by the United Nations Security Council. Colonel Qaddafi’s forces showed no sign of let up in their siege of rebel-cities. ]([Libya - The New York Times](http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/libya/index.html)) With air supremacy established and Quadaffi’s air force neutralized, we’ll have a much easier time hunting and killing his armor columns. It’s a reasonably safe bet that we’ve already got special forces (probably from multiple nations, I can’t imagine we don’t have the SAS in there too) training the rebels in combat tactics and, much more likely than not, we are or will be supplying them with weaponry as well. Especially now that we can conduct air-drops of supplies with virtual impunity. With any luck we’ll see Quadaffi’s head mounted on a spear somewhere within the year. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/888 "2011-03-22T23:26:24Z")
A pike, Finn. Heads go on pikes. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/889 "2011-03-22T23:32:44Z")
Yeesh, traditionalists. Okay okay, Quadaffi’s head can go on a pike. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/890 "2011-03-22T23:41:38Z")
Supposedly, Metacomet’s head hung on a pike at the gate of Plymouth for at least 20 years after he lost King Philip’s War. (Metacomet being Philip for those of you not up on your 17th Century New England history). Today the name high schools after him. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/891 "2011-03-22T23:42:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > A pike, Finn. Heads go on pikes. Or on spikes. Some medieval city gates had permanent spikes along the ramparts for that purpose. I’m sure a nice spike could be installed on the ramparts of the [Red Castle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Castle_Museum) . . . ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/892 "2011-03-22T23:46:34Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > But yeah, whichever American initiated shooting at _friendly civilians_ really fucked up. I’ve read (on this board somewhere) that in WWII the Tommies had a saying: “When the Germans fire, the British duck. When the British fire, the Germans duck. But when the Americans fire, _everybody_ ducks.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/893 "2011-03-23T01:24:36Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > If the plane was shot down, then this would be a major triumph for Gaddafi’s brave fighters, and will hopefully give the Western aggressors pause in their future reign of terror. Are you still here? Gaddafi is paying people to help him. Surely you’d want to put his money where your mouth is. Seriously. Get thee to Tripoli and win one for the gipper. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/894 "2011-03-23T01:26:11Z")
If it had been Bad Guys running towards the pilot and the Marines _hadn’t_ fired, they be in trouble, too. Perhaps we should issue white hats to the Good Guys. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/895 "2011-03-23T02:28:25Z")
Best-case scenario, if the rebels win this, they are going to have to kill a lot of Libyans – not just foreign mercenaries, but Libyan career soldiers, such as they are; in any case, fellowcountrymen – before they get to Tripoli. And, since the troop strength of the rebels themselves is mostly in civilian volunteers, a lot of them will die, too, before the mass of them get there. Once properly armed and drilled they can outnumber the government troops, but they can’t equal them man-for-man in combat ability, and winning with massed numbers has a butcher’s bill. The New Libya will be born with a very sad, bloody legacy, many grieving families, possibly some enduring tribal blood-feuds, if Libya is really as tribal as everyone says. Does anyone see any way that can be avoided, without leaving Gaddafi in power? I want that third option, Scotty! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/896 "2011-03-23T02:38:03Z")
Assassination. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/897 "2011-03-23T02:39:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Does anyone see any way that can be avoided, without leaving Gaddafi in power? I want that third option, Scotty! I think there’s some hope that the regime will fall before the rebels push it — if enough of Qaddafi’s soldiers decide they can’t possibly win, everything will go a-tumblin’. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/898 "2011-03-23T03:02:43Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > Didn’t we claim some Nazi gold? I think it’s the Ark of the Covenant. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/899 "2011-03-23T03:36:44Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Assassination. Or him fleeing the country. There’s again rumors that he would search for ways to do that. I don’t put much faith in this, but who knows? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/900 "2011-03-23T03:54:36Z")
He strikes me as a bit too nutty to accurately predict how he’ll rabbit. But if offering him asylum (and lifetime house arrest) would end the situation with less loss of life, I’m all for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=46)